CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[Good2Golf]

Ya, our mx is painful, literally.

Mild improvement over the Griffon’s original AAQ-501 single-channel FLIR. Pales in comparison to the Hook’s Gen 4 15HDi with Thermal/SwIR/EO blending; only thing it didn’t get was the narrow divergence laser illuminator, but can’t get everything.

 

[rnkelly]

Mild improvement over the Griffon’s original AAQ-501 single-channel FLIR. Pales in comparison to the Hook’s Gen 4 15HDi with Thermal/SwIR/EO blending; only thing it didn’t get was the narrow divergence laser illuminator, but can’t get everything.

You can’t press the record button though…

 

[markppcli]

You can’t press the record button though…

All I want is for you guys to have an LTD. And rockets, rockets would be nice. Oh and if we could just call you a CAS platform but that’s a private battle lol.

 

[Good2Golf]

All I want is for you guys to have an LTD. And rockets, rockets would be nice. Oh and if we could just call you a CAS platform but that’s a private battle lol.

Hey, hey, hey…enough of that crazy STANAG3733 talk!

 

[markppcli]

Hey, hey, hey…enough of that crazy STANAG3733 talk!

God dmanit. Now I have to goggle that

 

[Good2Golf]

God dmanit. Now I have to goggle that

You clearly haven’t done enough NATO School SHAPE courses…off to Oberammergau with you! (Pro tip: stay downtown in a Pension, vice in the NSS Caserne…and Wednesday is Hot Stone Night)

 

[markppcli]

https://x.com/murray_brewster/status/1737455310883725670?s=46

Interesting that the Swedes are expecting to support eFP Latvia

 

[CBH99]

You clearly haven’t done enough NATO School SHAPE courses…off to Oberammergau with you! (Pro tip: stay downtown in a Pension, vice in the NSS Caserne…and Wednesday is Hot Stone Night)

Is this even a real place??

 

[CBH99]

If only we listened to the senate defebse committee in 2012 and purchased a squadron of attack helicopters to be proper escorts.....na they don't know what they are talking about.

They probably don't know a ton more than the average MP, to be honest. But being on the committee they are exposed to a lot more of "us stuff" than they otherwise would be

We could have ordered a squadron of Cobra attack helicopters, had them built at Bell in Quebec - plenty of parts in common with the Griffons, added a lethal battlefield capability, increased our respect within NATO, and stimulated the Canadian aerospace industry. Heck they aren't even all that expensive!

...


But sssssshhhhh...we don't use the word 'attack helicopters.' We now use the term 'armed reconnaissance helicopters' instead of that scary A-word. (Much kinder, less scary)

Attack helicopters are mean, divisive, and have no purpose in a civilized future...and from what I am told, quite misogynistic as well...

<Said in Justin Trudeau's voice...and pace...so you know I don't actually mean anything I said above...>


...


This is the dude who cost Bell Canada the order of 15 Bell 412 helicopters the Philippines wanted to buy to help modernize their armed forces, because he wanted "firm assurances' they wouldn't be armed, wouldn't ever have door guns attached, or be used against the civilian population..."

They just rolled their eyes and canceled the contract, and bought Russian instead.

 

[dimsum]

Is this even a real place??

Welcome to the awesomeness of NATO European postings.

 

[KevinB]

They probably don't know a ton more than the average MP, to be honest. But being on the committee they are exposed to a lot more of "us stuff" than they otherwise would be

We could have ordered a squadron of Cobra attack helicopters, had them built at Bell in Quebec - plenty of parts in common with the Griffons, added a lethal battlefield capability, increased our respect within NATO, and stimulated the Canadian aerospace industry. Heck they aren't even all that expensive!

...


But sssssshhhhh...we don't use the word 'attack helicopters.' We now use the term 'armed reconnaissance helicopters' instead of that scary A-word. (Much kinder, less scary)

Attack helicopters are mean, divisive, and have no purpose in a civilized future...and from what I am told, quite misogynistic as well...

<Said in Justin Trudeau's voice...and pace...so you know I don't actually mean anything I said above...>


...


This is the dude who cost Bell Canada the order of 15 Bell 412 helicopters the Philippines wanted to buy to help modernize their armed forces, because he wanted "firm assurances' they wouldn't be armed, wouldn't ever have door guns attached, or be used against the civilian population..."

They just rolled their eyes and canceled the contract, and bought Russian instead.

The Griffon doesn’t have a lot in common with the Super Cobra, your would need to update the Griffon fleet to the UH-1Y Venom.

Which Mirabel doesn’t do, as they do commercial Bell products not military.
The CH-146 Griffon is not considered by Bell to be a Military aircraft as it’s a 412 with some add ons as opposed to a purpose built Military A/C like the UH-1Y.

 

[CBH99]

The Griffon doesn’t have a lot in common with the Super Cobra, your would need to update the Griffon fleet to the UH-1Y Venom.

Which Mirabel doesn’t do, as they do commercial Bell products not military.
The CH-146 Griffon is not considered by Bell to be a Military aircraft as it’s a 412 with some add ons as opposed to a purpose built Military A/C like the UH-1Y.

I admit, I assumed (aka didn't Google anything) the 412 and UH-1Y had a lot of parts in common, with the Venom obviously being the version that actually looks like it was purpose built for military operations.

Thrown a wrench into my suggestion...


...


In theory, could the plant in Mirabel build a squadron of Super Cobras? Would we want them to? (Lots of moving parts and precise timings...would building them away from the factory that's been building them for decades be a recipe for disaster? Would it matter?)

 

[KevinB]

The SC is living on borrowed time anyway.
FARA is going to (well maybe) replace it and the Apache (I say maybe as we see how the RAH-66 Comanche program didn’t work out).

I doubt Bell has any interest in giving Bell Canada Mirabel any part of DoD projects as the CAF sat on the sidelines for FLRAA and FARA.

 

[quadrapiper]

The SC is living on borrowed time anyway.
FARA is going to (well maybe) replace it and the Apache (I say maybe as we see how the RAH-66 Comanche program didn’t work out).

I doubt Bell has any interest in giving Bell Canada Mirabel any part of DoD projects as the CAF sat on the sidelines for FLRAA and FARA.

Hasn't US helicopter development post 80s been a bit messy?

 

[KevinB]

Hasn't US helicopter development post 80s been a bit messy?

Programs yes, but upgrades of inservice platforms has been excellent.

The UH-60 BlackHawk, AH-64 Apache, CH-47 Chinook, CH-53 Super/King Stallion, UH-1, AH-1, and even the A/MH-6 Littlebirds all have been upgraded quite significantly.

Not just engines and transmissions, but the avionics, communications, and EO/IO systems.

While not a huge fan of the UH-1 platform anymore the Y Venom models are a far cry from the old Twin -N’s the USMC used to have.

 

[quadrapiper]

Programs yes, but upgrades of inservice platforms has been excellent.

Programs for new designs were what I was thinking of.

The UH-60 BlackHawk, AH-64 Apache, CH-47 Chinook, CH-53 Super/King Stallion, UH-1, AH-1, and even the A/MH-6 Littlebirds all have been upgraded quite significantly.

Not just engines and transmissions, but the avionics, communications, and EO/IO systems.

While not a huge fan of the UH-1 platform anymore the Y Venom models are a far cry from the old Twin -N’s the USMC used to have.

Now, buying a healthy fleet of any or all of these would have made total sense.

 

[KevinB]

Well it appears the Germans are in trouble too.

German army ‘too thin’ on resources to make Lithuania brigade viable, leader says

www.stripes.com

 

[markppcli]

Well it appears the Germans are in trouble too.

German army ‘too thin’ on resources to make Lithuania brigade viable, leader says

www.stripes.com

Turns out when you run the military on a shoe string budget it can’t rapidly become ready. Who knew.

 

[FJAG]

Turns out when you run the military on a shoe string budget it can’t rapidly become ready. Who knew.

They aren't on a shoestring budget. It may be 1.4% of their GDP, like us, but that still works out to US$55 billion. That gets them a force of 180,000 RegF. Of that62k are army, 27k are air force and 16k are navy. That leaves an overhead of 80,000!!!

Their problem, just like Canada, is that a lot of money is sunk into a pointless bureaucracy and their personnel pay, capital and O&M budgets are greatly skewed to pay starving capital and O&M. For that number of pers they have only 11 active brigades - four of which are already intertwined with the Dutch or French.

Throw into the mix that the German military as a whole has been short staffed by 20,000 for several years.

The problem too is that there's all of Poland between Germany and Lithuania. It's a bit like Canada - you either post people there with their families or do rotations of x months. Canada is talking about rotating some 2,200 - that will be a killer. Germany is talking a full brigade. Out of their 7 uncommitted brigades that's a killer too.

With the exception of the Americans (and now the Poles perhaps) NATO's militaries are generally challenged by their own administrative ham-stringing which greatly reduces the amount of defence outputs that their defence inputs produce. NATO needs a revolution of military affairs in administration as well as the one in technology.

 

[Kirkhill]

The problem too is that there's all of Poland between Germany and Lithuania. It's a bit like Canada - you either post people there with their families or do rotations of x months. Canada is talking about rotating some 2,200 - that will be a killer. Germany is talking a full brigade. Out of their 7 uncommitted brigades that's a killer too.

I was with you right up to there. Given the number of people that were riding the trains in the 90s, picking up suitcases of shampoo to sell back home in the East I don't really think there is much of a barrier to travel.

A couple years back I was at a symposium in Heidelberg for a week. We had folks from all over, including Turks and Romanians (one of my fellow travellers was a Romanian from Canada).

One group of Germans had just got back from a bachelors' weekend in Chernobyl in Ukraine. Radiation was not a concern. It was a free zone where there was little to no law enforcement.

Distance certainly wasn't a concern.

Culture is a bigger one.

The Moravian Gap sees Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Austrians and Hungarians all mutually detesting each other. It is a 2 hour drive from Krakow to Vienna.