Can a mess committee be "fired" by higher?

[Nfld Sapper]

That's about where it should be. Now multiply that by 100 members and it's a good start.

Yeah but sadley there is less than 100 of us...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Then a solution needs to be found. A mess IS a business. If raising dues isn't an option then as the executive it's your job to find another way to fund it. Also, if you think $30-$50 a year is too much then I suggest you look and see what all other messes in the CF are charging. You're getting a deal.

For a typical reservist troop their mess is open 4 nights a month for a couple of hours each night. Sometimes admin nights and sometimes after an exercise, so say maybe 9 nights a month.

Reg force mess's are open every night (give or take). Reg F NCM mess dues are about $7 to $9 a month if I recall. 

Reg force messs make a lot of money from mess dues (hundreds of people) and a steady income from purchases.  Reserve mess's get a kick start by the yearly mess dues and then need to make it by with product sales 1-2 times a week for a couple of hours after 10PM. 

I'm not sure if the OP is a member of a reg force or reservist mess but there's a huge difference in cash between them.  I'm guessing it's a JRs mess.

Perhaps the reason the executive has been threatened with removal is because no mess should let itself get into a situation like this.

Replacing the mess committee every time something gets broke in a mess would be quite the revolving door policy.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Mine are $12/month.

 

[AirDet]

I'm not sure if the OP is a member of a reg force or reservist mess but there's a huge difference in cash between them.  I'm guessing it's a JRs mess.
Replacing the mess committee every time something gets broke in a mess would be quite the revolving door policy.

My feeling is it's a JR's as well. It may even be a reserve unit. The point is when you accept a position on a mess exec it comes with responsibility. Keeping it running and financially healthy is a big part of that.

I also agree that replacing the committee every time something is broken would be ridiculous. However, failure to maintain the financial health of the mess is a far more serious allegation, isn't it?

If his mess has Civil Engineers and Contractors as he said then there should be no excuse for $3100 busting the bank.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well way back when, we did raffle off some the services of some ladies, which for some reason the VPD took a dim view of. Raising money for a Mess is easy, doing it legally not so much. I can't think of a mess in the reserves that isn't struggling at some point.

I recall a visit to a Pine Tree station where the messes took turns being open on the weekends, basically everyone piled into whichever mess was open that day.

 

[DAA]

It's been many years, since I was involved in Mess management, as either a member of the Exec or Fin Advisor.  But I do believe, that the proceeds from Mess Dues and the proceeds from bar sales, are two distinctly different pots of money and aren't mixed.

So your Mess Dues, don't go towards paying salaries, that I do know.  On the damage side of the house, that's grey area.  You don't technically own the building and are basically a tenant occupying/using space. Normally, infrastructure is managed and funded through the local support unit.

Not sure if CFP 292 is still around and in effect but that is where you might want to look.

 

[brihard]

So if I read this right (and reference to contractors and engineers suggest it's a reserve unit):

- A typical mess night happens with typical minor property damage.
- The troops try to fix it ASAP, absorbing the cost, but they get stop-punched by PWGSC.
- Drywall, apparently, is a heritage artifact.
- PWGSC provides a quote that professionals within the unit know is ludicrously high.
- The mess committee questions the numbers and wants to see what the quotes actually say to justify the cost
- The spanish inquisition.


Have I got this more or less right?

 

[Tibbson]

I believe if you check regulations a Mess, being an NPF establishment, is not able to "take out a loan".  Now, if you meant you would go to one of the other Messes for help to get the bill paid, after which you would reimburse the other Mess over time, that is not normally an issue but it's not as though you can just take on a debt otherwise.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I also agree that replacing the committee every time something is broken would be ridiculous. However, failure to maintain the financial health of the mess is a far more serious allegation, isn't it?

Totally agree. It sounds like their mess is being made to pay $3100 when they can get the work done for 1/3 the price, which it seems is putting the mess in a financially unhealthy spot.

Point being, $3100 for a mess that has hundreds of members paying monthly mess dues isn't that much of a hit (especially when they can afford to give away a $10'000 four wheeler at Christmas like the Kyerna club in Petawawa).
To a reserve mess, especially if it's a single unit of 50 or less members, $3100 is a fortune. 

If his mess has Civil Engineers and Contractors as he said then there should be no excuse for $3100 busting the bank.

His unit has the engineers and contractors, not necessarily his mess.

 

[Tibbson]

There are zero issues with it coming from NPF and no problems with accepting responsibility for the costs, the issue is the exorbinant amount being charged for said repair and the inability to provide an itemized quote for the repairs taking place. This is not an issue of entitlement: our event, our cost to repair, our cross to bear. The issue writ large being whether fiscal policies are being followed and whether precedent exists for a scenario such as this. Secondly, can a mess committee be imposed upon a membership without the constitutionally (mess constitution) defined voting procedures being followed?

When you break it down it's not all that exorbitant.  Knowing how they work you need to pay for the repairman. his flunky who carries the tools, a supervisor and a driver.  Oh, and a vehicle big enough for them to nap in.

 

[Tibbson]

I guess I look at it in a rather black and white light.  The person(s) who did this should be made to pay and for that reason alone I don't see why there shouldn't have been an SI.

 

[Robert0288]

So much for solving problems at the lowest possible level eh?

 

[DAA]

Gee, isn't the invention of "PSP" just the greatest thing since sliced bread?

 

[Remius]

As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.

This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.

Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.

 

[Tibbson]

As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.

This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.

Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.

Well, again I ask, if duty staff witnessed the event then why are the individual(s) involved not being held personally responsible?  Obviously their behavior was outside the realm of what would be considered acceptable. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

and things are put into perspective  ;D

 

[Remius]

I only have peripheral knowledge but the member in question has released or was in the process of releasing.  I can't be sure if the unit or mess are pursuing this through civil litigation or not.  If the member is still in then I'm not sure why they haven't pursued that course of action or didn't while he was in. 

This is starting to get out of my lane so grain of salt.

 

[AirDet]

I guess I look at it in a rather black and white light.  The person(s) who did this should be made to pay and for that reason alone I don't see why there shouldn't have been an SI.

Agreed. There are a few options to have the responsible party pay for it. As a Sr NCO I'd be considering something a little more disciplinary in nature. Either way, that unit has a bigger problem than just a hole in a wall.

 

[acen]

As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.

This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.

Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.

Yeah, there is quite a bit more at play here in terms of details than was let on. This particular wall has a storied history, even if nothing about it is historical. The structure is a bit disjointed in comparison to what a normal mess is. More club than mess in terms of how funds are managed, with a normal overriding combined mess.

 

[brihard]

As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.

This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.

Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.

I see nothing here that invalidates Throwaway's original concern. I don't read that as the mess is trying to get out of accountability for anything here. It seems they're merely questioning an outlandish dollar amount that's been quoted them. We're talking about a hole in drywall here, after all. If the mess as a legal entity is being expected to pay for the damage, it's perfectly reasonable for them to want to see clear accounting of the costs. I'd go so far as to say that the mess committee has an obligation to its members to make sure their money is spent responsibly. Fair to say?