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Can a mess committee be "fired" by higher?

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First off, this is a throwaway account so as not to divulge my own identity. Think of this as a "friend of a friend" type of scenario.

There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, of which $2600 was "disbursements". Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds).

My questions are two fold - first off, is that even allowed? Nobody has formally been charged and we are just being handed a bill, which we know to be outrageously overpriced and we do not have such funds in our account: Essentially, all further mess events have to be cancelled, next years funds have to be garnished to pay for it, and we might even have to do a special levy to make ends meet. Given how the bill will be payable 30 days after work completion, we will most likely have to take out some sort of loan in order to pay.

Second of all, the threat was that the mess committee would be fired by higher and one would be imposed upon the mess if the mess did not start marching in lock step. Is this kosher? I know the mess committee serves at the leisure of the CO, but can one be imposed upon a mess without votes from it's membership?

Thank you for any clarification, can take this to PM if need be.

 
Throwaway said:
First off, this is a throwaway account so as not to divulge my own identity. Think of this as a "friend of a friend" type of scenario.

There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, of which $2600 was "disbursements". Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds).

My questions are two fold - first off, is that even allowed? Nobody has formally been charged and we are just being handed a bill, which we know to be outrageously overpriced and we do not have such funds in our account: Essentially, all further mess events have to be cancelled, next years funds have to be garnished to pay for it, and we might even have to do a special levy to make ends meet. Given how the bill will be payable 30 days after work completion, we will most likely have to take out some sort of loan in order to pay.

Second of all, the threat was that the mess committee would be fired by higher and one would be imposed upon the mess if the mess did not start marching in lock step. Is this kosher? I know the mess committee serves at the leisure of the CO, but can one be imposed upon a mess without votes from it's membership?

Thank you for any clarification, can take this to PM if need be.

Your first mistake was bringing this into the public realm. whenever someone broke something in my old mess that said person was expected to front the bill and fix it.  You should have just got the subbies to come in patch the building up and be done with it. 
 
Yes, on all accounts.  +1 for RoyalDrew 

- Your Mess committee serves at the pleasure of the Base Commander. 
- Government buildings are entrusted to Messes for their use and you are expected to care for them like adults. 
- Your only means of fixing a government building is through the PW.
- Repairs such as damage from dumbasses are taken from NPF because the tax-payer is not your Mess's personal fun-money bank.
- Based on your post, your mess membership seems over-entitled and under-responsible.
- Your "throw away" account is concerning.
 
RoyalDrew said:
Your first mistake was bringing this into the public realm. whenever someone broke something in my old mess that said person was expected to front the bill and fix it.  You should have just got the subbies to come in patch the building up and be done with it.

Except that one cannot just 'fix' things in a heritage building or else they risk losing the heritage status and the benefits (some say hassles) that come with that.
 
RoyalDrew said:
Your first mistake was bringing this into the public realm. whenever someone broke something in my old mess that said person was expected to front the bill and fix it.  You should have just got the subbies to come in patch the building up and be done with it.

Wholly understood, but this was brought into the public realm as a result from higher, not at our behest. It would have been fixed in a business day had PWGSC not been brought in within hours of the incident.

Understand that we are attempting to be fiscally responsible as well as follow procedure, especially with PWGSC is involved. I am simply seeking the knowledge of others as to whether or not this is all above board and has precedent. Had it been an option, the hole would have been repaired in a day, by qualified contractors and inspected by an engineer, but this is not an option given that it was brought up to PW in record time.

 
Second of all, the threat was that the mess committee would be fired by higher and one would be imposed upon the mess if the mess did not start marching in lock step. Is this kosher? I know the mess committee serves at the leisure of the CO, but can one be imposed upon a mess without votes from it's membership?
Yes the CO can fire everyone and pick a new mess committee, up to and including ordering someone to do it.

That's also a great way to destroy any spirit a mess has, no one likes a yes man being put in the PMC chair.



Throwaway said:
First off, this is a throwaway account so as not to divulge my own identity. Think of this as a "friend of a friend" type of scenario.

There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, of which $2600 was "disbursements". Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds).

My questions are two fold - first off, is that even allowed? Nobody has formally been charged and we are just being handed a bill, which we know to be outrageously overpriced and we do not have such funds in our account: Essentially, all further mess events have to be cancelled, next years funds have to be garnished to pay for it, and we might even have to do a special levy to make ends meet. Given how the bill will be payable 30 days after work completion, we will most likely have to take out some sort of loan in order to pay.

If you don't have the money you don't have the money.  Ordering the mess to pay for repairs at an inflated price when the mess doesn't physically have the money seems very irresponsible.  I'd send a letter to the company and CC the chain of command and tell them you don't have the money and if they want their money you can work out an arrangement at so much $ per month or something. Or since the CoC ordered the bill be paid put a memo up the chain of command requesting their mess help yours with the cost and then make an arrangement to pay them back.

Getting a loan to pay for for a bill you were ordered to pay sounds ridiculous.


 
There are zero issues with it coming from NPF and no problems with accepting responsibility for the costs, the issue is the exorbinant amount being charged for said repair and the inability to provide an itemized quote for the repairs taking place. This is not an issue of entitlement: our event, our cost to repair, our cross to bear. The issue writ large being whether fiscal policies are being followed and whether precedent exists for a scenario such as this. Secondly, can a mess committee be imposed upon a membership without the constitutionally (mess constitution) defined voting procedures being followed?
 
Are you saying that your constitution calls for an elected PMC?
 
PPCLI Guy said:
Are you saying that your constitution calls for an elected PMC?

That it does, elected by and from the ordinary members at a general mess meeting.
 
I would suggest that is an artifice.  The PMC draws his or her authority from the CO, not the membership.
 
Interesting point, that is what is in the constitution however I shall have to check that against CFAO 27-1 and A-AD-262-000/AG-000 for inconsistencies. Obviously QR&O 27.01 overrides all. That answers question #2. Thanks PPCLI Guy, this is exactly what I was looking for.
 
Throwaway said:
Wholly understood, but this was brought into the public realm as a result from higher, not at our behest.

*Higher* said "you WILL go on a public forum and confirm what we are saying is correct"??

It would have been fixed in a business day had PWGSC not been brought in within hours of the incident. better if some dumbass(s)didn't put a hole in a wall to being with, and as it was on DND owned or leased property, we are lucky an AI/SI wasn't launched to find out exactly what happened and who was responsible as all CF members are subject to the CSD in the Mess.

;)
 
Forgive me if I am wrong, but if you are using drywall sheets, I suspect the wall in question is not part of the original heritage structure, but a later add on. If you are pulling sheets and replacing them, then it's not structural, nor would you have to alter any wiring. Sounds like a tempest in a teacup being stirred into a hurricane. Guess I'm old, we had guys do a drop down ceiling in our mess over a weekend , all done by members. I don't recall anyone getting in trouble over it.
 
It may be cheaper to have Public Works come in and have their contractor place a nail in the wall so that you can hang a picture over the hole.    >:D
 
I know of at least one unit with a unit flag painted on a piece of 2x3 plywood, permanently fastened to the wall in the snakepit.  It has a small brass plaque below that reads something along the lines of "Dedicated to Maj Bloggins, who christened the wall with his ass in a vigorous game of crud, 199X".  The flag perfectly covers the hole made by Maj Bloggins' ass.


(I was also once on course where our grad was delayed because we had to go and clean shacks, post course party, so CE could do a damage assessment)
 
You have your answers and they are the correct ones.

You have a far larger problem. You're telling us that your mess doesn't have an account large enough to cover a measly $3100? Spending this money will cripple your mess for this year and next?

Son, it's time you looked long and hard at your cash flow. I've been on the executive of several messes for many years. I've never seen a mess with less than a full year operating budget in the bank.

You need to make some serious changes and start by increasing your mess dues to reflect the costs of running a business. I say that because that is exactly what the mess is.

I can guarantee that if your mess can't run itself NPF will step in to solve the problem for you. That would not be a good situation for anyone.
 
AirDet said:
You have a far larger problem. You're telling us that your mess doesn't have an account large enough to cover a measly $3100? Spending this money will cripple your mess for this year and next?

Son, it's time you looked long and hard at your cash flow. I've been on the executive of several messes for many years. I've never seen a mess with less than a full year operating budget in the bank.

Not ever mess is a reg force mess with hundreds of members. Believe it or not some mess's have 50-100 members (many inactive) who pay may $30-$50 for the year.  A $3100 bill for a reserve unit is a pretty big deal.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
Not ever mess is a reg force mess with hundreds of members. Believe it or not some mess's have 50-100 members (many inactive) who pay may $30-$50 for the year.  A $3100 bill for a reserve unit is a pretty big deal.

Then a solution needs to be found. A mess IS a business. If raising dues isn't an option then as the executive it's your job to find another way to fund it. Also, if you think $30-$50 a year is too much then I suggest you look and see what all other messes in the CF are charging. You're getting a deal.

Perhaps the reason the executive has been threatened with removal is because no mess should let itself get into a situation like this.
 
For the SNCO and Officers Mess here at CFS ST. JOHN'S I pay the equivalent of $216 per year...
 
NFLD Sapper said:
For the SNCO and Officers Mess here at CFS ST. JOHN'S I pay the equivalent of $216 per year...

That's about where it should be. Now multiply that by 100 members and it's a good start.
 
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