CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Furniture]

That can change unit to unit. Some units are very strict about the mess only being used as a mess. I've also seen multiple purpose rooms, although that was only one unit, and they were also the unit who refused to remove their headdress in someone else's mess because "it's not my mess."

Every time I think I've heard the weirdest thing out of the reserves, someone mentions something new...

 

[Kilted]

Every time I think I've heard the weirdest thing out of the reserves, someone mentions something new...

If you knew the unit I'm talking about, you wouldn't be surprised.

The Militia is it's own breed, you could learn everything there is to know about us in a month, and after a hundred years, we would still surprise you.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If you knew the unit I'm talking about, you wouldn't be surprised.

The Militia is it's own breed, you could learn everything there is to know about us in a month, and after a hundred years, we would still surprise you.

And about 125 Reservists are doing a surprisingly good job on the fires in Alberta, it would seem

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2207463491576

 

[Navy_Pete]

I didn't get paid to bartend. They made all the JOs bartend on board my Ship. We were all supposed to get smartserve (never happened). I said I wasn't paying for it and they could pay for it if they wanted me to have it.

I absolutely didn't give a shit how much people drank. I wasn't going to let them kill themselves but if they wanted to get piss tanked, they were free to do so as they were Adults. Put more than a few people to bed in their racks

If they acted like idiots, they could suffer the consequences.

I also sailed during COVID, they couldn't fly anyone home even if they drank too much so people were threatened with no shore time if they acted up. Given the limited opportunities ashore, it had an effect and everyone behaved themselves.... mostly

That's weird, I got the Smartserve, and got reimbursed for it by the LogO. Having previously worked a bar, it really meant not much in reality, as the threshold to cut people off is way past a DUI (esp in NS), but pouring someone in their rack isn't an option you have in most bars.

TBF, I was a HOD on IR, so I was okay to stick around the mess alongside and bartend, and had no problem cutting people off (although never really had to, and usually just started giving people water as not-subtle hint).

 

[Furniture]

That's weird, I got the Smartserve, and got reimbursed for it by the LogO. Having previously worked a bar, it really meant not much in reality, as the threshold to cut people off is way past a DUI (esp in NS), but pouring someone in their rack isn't an option you have in most bars.

TBF, I was a HOD on IR, so I was okay to stick around the mess alongside and bartend, and had no problem cutting people off (although never really had to, and usually just started giving people water as not-subtle hint).

When I was on WIN bartender in the C&POs was a duty watch position, the mess paid for the Serve It Right course. I never had to cut someone off, the rest of the mess took care of people before it became an issue. A firm but polite "you've had enough, go to bed" from one's peers works wonders.

 

[Halifax Tar]

When I was on WIN bartender in the C&POs was a duty watch position, the mess paid for the Serve It Right course. I never had to cut someone off, the rest of the mess took care of people before it became an issue. A firm but polite "you've had enough, go to bed" from one's peers works wonders.

That was a big debate in our mess in FRE. A paid position or a DW position. I was VPMC at the time so I tried to stay impartial. But my feeling was if it was going to be a DW position then its a full on DW position, in uniform and responding to ships events for 24hrs. The mess eventually went the paid route. And I think it was 50$ a day and all your tips.

Also the mess always covered the Smart Serve courses.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That was a big debate in our mess in FRE. A paid position or a DW position. I was VPMC at the time so I tried to stay impartial. But my feeling was if it was going to be a DW position then its a full on DW position, in uniform and responding to ships events for 24hrs. The mess eventually went the paid route. And I think it was 50$ a day and all your tips.

Also the mess always covered the Smart Serve courses.

And there's an example of well thought out, rational solution guided by logic as opposed to emotion.

Which is kind of the opposite of my general experience with the subject

 

[Halifax Tar]

And there's an example of well thought out, rational solution guided by logic as opposed to emotion.

Which is kind of the opposite of my general experience with the subject

Sometimes we do things right, C&POs I mean lol

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

That was a big debate in our mess in FRE. A paid position or a DW position. I was VPMC at the time so I tried to stay impartial. But my feeling was if it was going to be a DW position then its a full on DW position, in uniform and responding to ships events for 24hrs. The mess eventually went the paid route. And I think it was 50$ a day and all your tips.

Also the mess always covered the Smart Serve courses.

You don't need a bartender in foreign ports if everyone can behave themselves. There is usually always one though

We had one person who couldn't keep it together. We just banned them from the mess for a month after they made an ass of themselves.

They were allowed in the Mess for meals, then they had to leave as soon as they were done eating.

Stuck on a Ship with no ability to go ashore and no amenities, I can't think of a worse punishment .

That's weird, I got the Smartserve, and got reimbursed for it by the LogO. Having previously worked a bar, it really meant not much in reality, as the threshold to cut people off is way past a DUI (esp in NS), but pouring someone in their rack isn't an option you have in most bars.

TBF, I was a HOD on IR, so I was okay to stick around the mess alongside and bartend, and had no problem cutting people off (although never really had to, and usually just started giving people water as not-subtle hint).

I think the lack of Smartserve had a lot to do with COVID tbh. I miss that aspect of COVID. A lot of stupid and pointless things got discarded.

If people act stupid, discipline them accordingly. I know it's a simple concept but it works

We had a sailor get in a drunken fight just before our only actual Port Visit in about a three month period. Nothing like seeing a grown man cry when you tell they are confined to the ship for their actions

 

[daftandbarmy]

We had a sailor get in a drunken fight just before our only actual Port Visit in about a three month period. Nothing like seeing a grown man cry when you tell they are confined to the ship for their actions

Tangentially, I watched a soldier be put on 'trench arrest' in the field after he screwed up in some way I can't recall now.

He had to stay in his fire trench for a couple of days. It seemd to have cured him of his poor behaviour, while giving him an opportunity to display a whole new range of skills related to disposing of his own body waste

 

[Halifax Tar]

You don't need a bartender in foreign ports if everyone can behave themselves. There is usually always one though

We had one person who couldn't keep it together. We just banned them from the mess for a month after they made an ass of themselves.

Stuck on a Ship with no ability to go ashore and no amenities, I can't think of a worse punishment .

Now I am no NPF expert, but I though by the policy/rules stated you had to have a bartender for the bar to be open ? I don't think you guys always employed stewards for that. I stand to be corrected.

Understanding the weirdroom, oops, wardroom often does things there own way.

I feel you on COVID, we had that and helo crash. We left with 256 people and returned with 198. The mental toll of being confined to ship for that long was too much for some, and I have empathy and compassion for that.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Now I am no NPF expert, but I though by the policy/rules stated you had to have a bartender for the bar to be open ? I don't think you guys always employed stewards for that. I stand to be corrected.

Understanding the weirdroom, oops, wardroom often does things there own way.

I feel you on COVID, we had that and helo crash. We left with 256 people and returned with 198. The mental toll of being confined to ship for that long was too much for some, and I have empathy and compassion for that.

We always had a bartender, it ended up being the 2nd OOD or a 'volunteer' usually.

My point is it's just a fridge with some beer in it, DO we REALLY need a bartender , especially once over the horizon .

Saying you have a bartender on ship IAW some NPF policy is just CAF CYA.

For what it's worth, I see alcohol and bars going away completely on Ship. People will just smuggle it on now like they do with weed and other contraband. They'll go down to the lower decks and drink there. The Upper Deckers will just remain blissfully unaware of it and/or pretend it isn't happening.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We always had a bartender, it ended up being the 2nd OOD or a 'volunteer' usually.

My point is it's just a fridge with some beer in it, DO we REALLY need a bartender , especially once over the horizon .

Saying you have a bartender on ship IAW some NPF policy is just CAF CYA.

For what it's worth, I see alcohol and bars going away completely on Ship. People will just smuggle it on now like they do with weed and other contraband. They'll go down to the lower decks and drink there. The Upper Deckers will just remain blissfully unaware of it and/or pretend it isn't happening.

"I see no ships..." is a great tradition

 

[Halifax Tar]

We always had a bartender, it ended up being the 2nd OOD or a 'volunteer' usually.

My point is it's just a fridge with some beer in it, DO we REALLY need a bartender , especially once over the horizon .

Saying you have a bartender on ship IAW some NPF policy is just CAF CYA.

For what it's worth, I see alcohol and bars going away completely on Ship. People will just smuggle it on now like they do with weed and other contraband. They'll go down to the lower decks and drink there. The Upper Deckers will just remain blissfully unaware of it and/or pretend it isn't happening.

Doesn't this all come back to basic discipline ? If we don't expect our people to follow simply policies like bartenders on deployed ships, if that is the policy, what can we expect them to follow ?

And if the policy doesn't make sense, then prove it and change it.

I also think you're right that alcohol's days are numbered on HMC Ships.

 

[MARS]

We always had a bartender, it ended up being the 2nd OOD or a 'volunteer' usually.

My point is it's just a fridge with some beer in it, DO we REALLY need a bartender , especially once over the horizon .

Saying you have a bartender on ship IAW some NPF policy is just CAF CYA.

For what it's worth, I see alcohol and bars going away completely on Ship. People will just smuggle it on now like they do with weed and other contraband. They'll go down to the lower decks and drink there. The Upper Deckers will just remain blissfully unaware of it and/or pretend it isn't happening.

I haven't been in fleet since 2015, so take my recollection with a grain of salt, but circa...2012, I think (?) when the SS became a hard requirement, requirement, it was because, as i was informed at the time, there is an actual, legit liquor license assigned to each mess (or ship, cant recall). And serving alcohol in a licensed establishment legally requires SS qual, at least under Nova Scotia liquor licensing regulations. Perhaps things were/are different on the Best Coast?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I haven't been in fleet since 2015, so take my recollection with a grain of salt, but circa...2012, I think (?) when the SS became a hard requirement, requirement, it was because, as i was informed at the time, there is an actual, legit liquor license assigned to each mess (or ship, cant recall). And serving alcohol in a licensed establishment legally requires SS qual, at least under Nova Scotia liquor licensing regulations. Perhaps things were/are different on the Best Coast?

You would be correct. East Coast HMC Ships have to have a NS Liquor license to sell alcohol, and there is certain criteria to being given that license. SS Barkeeps are one of them.

Interestingly similar rules exist now for things like 50/50, shaft lottery ect and other ship internal gambling, for lack of a better term, activities.

We ran into this on FRE '20. LegAd shut down all of these endeavors as we did not have a liscense for that.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think the lack of Smartserve had a lot to do with COVID tbh. I miss that aspect of COVID. A lot of stupid and pointless things got discarded.

If people act stupid, discipline them accordingly. I know it's a simple concept but it works

We had a sailor get in a drunken fight just before our only actual Port Visit in about a three month period. Nothing like seeing a grown man cry when you tell they are confined to the ship for their actions

The smartserve course was an online one well before COVID, so really had nothing to do with it.

I don't think it's pointless though; as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the ships have a NS liquor licence, and I'd rather have a check in the box than lose the privilege all together if they crack down on it. Having those kinds of checks in the boxes is helpful when making the argument to not go hard over with a group punishment.

People acting stupid is a universal constant, and common sense isn't, so frankly I don't really mind having to do things like that as it is a genuine surprise for some people. The reason we keep talking about this kind of stuff isn't because people are doing what they are supposed to.

For the weirdroom, I'm personally a fan of a bartender, as otherwise the chit book just goes to a complete mess. We usually had (legitimate) volunteers for actual events, and then someone did it adhoc outside of that. For small groups just having a beer or whatever it tended to be whoever happened to be standing behind the bar, so really just talking about parties etc.

It's really simple to do, so surely it's not hard for the great and mighty brains in the Wardroom to take charge and show a bit of leadership to figure out. And while we call the ship our home, it's not, so just because we can ignore a provincial law with no likely consequence, always ask if we should be. Similarly, there are OSHA and WHIMIS standards for a really good reason, and especially during peacetime, no reason we shouldn't meet or exceed them. We're supposed to be professionals after all, and professionals have rules and guidelines.

 

[KevinB]

The smartserve course was an online one well before COVID, so really had nothing to do with it.

I don't think it's pointless though; as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the ships have a NS liquor licence, and I'd rather have a check in the box than lose the privilege all together if they crack down on it. Having those kinds of checks in the boxes is helpful when making the argument to not go hard over with a group punishment.

People acting stupid is a universal constant, and common sense isn't, so frankly I don't really mind having to do things like that as it is a genuine surprise for some people. The reason we keep talking about this kind of stuff isn't because people are doing what they are supposed to.

For the weirdroom, I'm personally a fan of a bartender, as otherwise the chit book just goes to a complete mess. We usually had (legitimate) volunteers for actual events, and then someone did it adhoc outside of that. For small groups just having a beer or whatever it tended to be whoever happened to be standing behind the bar, so really just talking about parties etc.

It's really simple to do, so surely it's not hard for the great and mighty brains in the Wardroom to take charge and show a bit of leadership to figure out. And while we call the ship our home, it's not, so just because we can ignore a provincial law with no likely consequence, always ask if we should be. Similarly, there are OSHA and WHIMIS standards for a really good reason, and especially during peacetime, no reason we shouldn't meet or exceed them. We're supposed to be professionals after all, and professionals have rules and guidelines.

Honestly the CAF/RCN should tell the NS Gov to F right off, as a HMCS vessel shouldn’t be beholden to a province, for anything. Now that’s not to say there shouldn’t be a policy, but as the province doesn’t own the vessel they shouldn’t be the ones dictating. The RCN/CAF/DND/GoC should have policies.

 

[Remius]

Honestly the CAF/RCN should tell the NS Gov to F right off, as a HMCS vessel shouldn’t be beholden to a province, for anything. Now that’s not to say there shouldn’t be a policy, but as the province doesn’t own the vessel they shouldn’t be the ones dictating. The RCN/CAF/DND/GoC should have policies.

I’m pretty sure it’s similar to army messes. They are not dictated to by the provinces but the powers that be in the CAF decided to abide by local by laws and regulations. So we voluntarily (sort of) agreed to follow those rules. Nothing was imposed by the province.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF in many domains chooses to respect provincial legislation, as it's a path of least resistance, simplifies hiring civilians with requisite skills, and removes the requirement for any DND or CAF personnel to provide policy oversight.