Cadets vs Boy Scouts (role, "child soldiers", etc.)

[Jason Jarvis]

Ghost778,

I was one of those cadets who complained about not doing "army stuff," but I was an air cadet so it was a bit of a moot point! I made up for this by joining the rifle team (we still had .22s then) and becoming a survival instructor.

But cadets isn‘t so much about doing "army stuff" as it is developing the all-around skills and confidences that young people need in order to thrive and succeed in today‘s world. This might sound corny, but I firmly believe that I‘m the man I am today -- both good and bad -- because of what I did and learned in cadets.

My wife isn‘t crazy about me joining the CIC because she doesn‘t like the fact that I would become a reservist -- she‘s worried I could get called up. I‘ve told her that there‘s no way in h*ll this would happen, and that if it did we‘d have bigger problems to worry about -- hello, mothership!

If I hadn‘t spent that summer tramping around the Quebec wilderness, I probably never would‘ve become a skydiver, went to grad school or met my wife -- and that‘s not a life I can even imagine.

Of course a lot of cadets go on to join the military, that‘s one of the reasons for the existence of cadets. But it‘s not the only one, and I would argue not even the most important one. Canada needs confident, well-rounded individuals who can think for themselves, don‘t mind working hard and want to make this country the best it can be.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I figured you would be

I agree with you 100% though. Cadets have a lot to offer kids growing up. But like with anything in life, if they get in the wrong crowd/ wrong set or morals they can get in soume crap.

One thing that drives me nuts is always seeing ex cadets who join the reserves then go and chat up the cadets telling war stories and acting like their some big important person because they fired off some blank rounds one summer - proceed to think they should get special treatment in the reserves because they were an rsm in cadets yadda yadda and lastly make fun of cadets in chat rooms or in person for being immature (young). Of course their going to act like that, they are between 12 and 17 what do they expect.

How long has that CHAPS thing been around? It seems pretty new but i figured it would have been common sence to have something like that years ago.

 

[Jason Jarvis]

Poke me for saying this if you want to, but I believe those cadets who do join the reserves and spend all their time telling war stories to current cadets lack proper role models and mentors in the form of NCMs in their parent units. Someone needs to sit these punks down and lay down the law -- they‘re not only making themselves look bad, but their words and actions dishonour their unit.

I‘m not up to snuff on CHAP, but things were already starting to soften up in 1992 when I taught as a staff cadet. We weren‘t allowed to push the cadets half as hard as I was pushed just the year before. It‘s a fine line between pushing an individual to their limit and beyond, and actually abusing them. Then again, maybe there isn‘t a difference?

If I can locate a unit with an open spot, I‘ll be sure to let the members know exactly what‘s expected of CIC officers and how they‘re prepared for their roles.

 

[ArmyBoyzGurl]

..in regards to CHAP, its the updated version of the SHARP system.. just a new way to "protect" kids... but, i had a kid, who had ADHD, he‘d pretend to have seizures in the middle of a parade to get attention, and there was NOTHING we could do.. we had his mom talk to the CO and everything..we withheld rank..4th year and still an LAC (1st appointed "rank" in air cadets) ... finally he just quit.. to our UTTER relief.....

Also.. if you guys have questions about CIC, or units that need CIC officers, check out www.cadets.ca - - all the info you‘ll need, i think....

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think even the regular army even has problems with getting rid of people who are obviously unfit for the army. It seems the best way to deal with a problem is to pass it on to another regiment.

I know physical fitness is an important part of cadets but can a 12 or 13 year old kid be expected to be physically as mature as a 17 or 18 year old? I‘m not sure how it works in cadets outside of what i‘ve observed a few times.

 

[Jason Jarvis]

Maybe I should‘ve been a little more clear: I didn‘t just mean physically tough, but mentally as well. Nobody on my course in Quebec dropped out because they were out of shape, but we had a lot of problems with guys -- and girls -- who couldn‘t handle the mental pressures forced on us by the staff.

To give you an example of what I mean (and please don‘t think I‘m bragging), here‘s what happened on our 5 day survival exercise:

• Up at 5 am for PT

• Strip search -- and I mean totally. We had to hand over our clothes the night before to make sure we weren‘t sneaking anything. We had to strip naked, walk across a mod tent and pick up our "certified" clothes.

• Lead back to the parade square and sat down, under threat of hard PT (running around the parade square with a fire extinguisher over your head, no less) if you spoke or looked at anyone.

• Loaded on a school bus with pillow cases over our heads so we couldn‘t tell where we were going.

• Arrived at the DZ an hour later and organized into groups on the spot -- and with no say on who you‘d get stuck with.

• Everyone issued five wooden matches and an empty canteen. Each group received one rusty jack-knife.

• Taken by boat to sites scattered around the edges of the lake, with a minimum of 500 m separation between groups. The lake had been flooded for logging, so the sides were extremely steep and the brush very thick -- no one would be visiting (almost).

• Each group received one full jerrycan of water and told to hoard it, because we might or might not get any more. Oh, and don‘t drink the water unless you want beaver fever.

• The next morning the staff came and picked us up and dropped us off for our solo survival exercise which would be "At least 24 hours, maybe more."

It hailed that day, in the middle of July, and all I managed to do was to get my lean-to up and stand over the fire to keep it from going out. It didn‘t work, so I cheated -- I humped along the lakeshore to where I thought another group was and begged for a burning stick, which I managed to get back and re-start my fire. That was one long, cold, wet lonely night, and I don‘t think I‘ve ever been so scared in my life. I never had a chance to build traps, dig a latrine, go fishing, nothing. I didn‘t score very well on that component of the exercise. . . .

Once we finished the solo part the next day we were all brought back togther. For the next four days, we gathered wood, rebuilt our shelter, scavenged for bugs, grubs, worms, rabbits, green blueberries, ate lots of plaintain (yuck!) and dreamed about steaks, cheeseburgers and the groups with girls.

Two of the five in my group started to have a rough go of it on day four, and we had to slap them around a little bit to shock them into doing anything. Nothing to rough, mind you, just some mild pushing and verbal abuse. Another one of the guys just clammed up and went around gathering wood with this stupid grin on his face -- he was incredible, he never stopped. He was always bringing in wood. Me and the other guy, well, we just tried to do our part, which wasn‘t much. Bob started to go a little loopy and I got punchy, and he had to settle me down by pushing me into the lake. This was actually a big deal, because by the third day all most of us could do was crawl around -- we were too weak to walk. Our bodies eventually did recover, and by noon on day four we could all walk again, albeit very slowly.

This is why I have such a hard time with "Survivor". . . .

Yes, it was physically very demanding. But it was also incredibly stressful mentally. When we all returned to base on the evening of the fifth day, we all felt like supermen. There wasn‘t anything we couldn‘t do -- or wouldn‘t try.

Walking into the mess hall was pretty cool, too. It was like Moses and the Red Sea -- the lines just melted away. Sure, we all reeked after five days in the bush with no soap :blotto: , but the other cadets and staff treated us with a lot more respect because they had all been told what we had just gone through.

Now, does this compare to combat? Of course not! Most of us were 17 or 18, so I guess we would‘ve been the same age as a recruit straight out of high school, and the same age as many soldiers for millenia. But for your average teenager, this was pretty tough -- especially because we didn‘t get any warm-ups. No field, night firing or FIBUA exercises, just straight into the bush with nothing but the clothes on your back and five matches.

We had no idea what to expect, but we all pulled together and got the job done. Those two guys never held a grudge against us for giving them a hard time, and both told me later that they would‘ve quit if we hadn‘t stepped in.

Now, you could always say this was just teenage bravado, but I took a lot of pictures that summer, and all I see in their faces now is confidence. Knowing that I made it through this kind of test has made a big difference in my life, and I just wish more teenage know-it-alls had the chance to experience this and get knocked down a few notches.

Sometimes a little humility goes a long way. . . .

 

[311]

Whats up with the dress of cadets while on base.As a reservist its amazing seeing about a million cadets walk into the mess looking like there going to the mall. I saw one cadet wearing a dog chain and a dog collar...with gelled long hair ( it was a guy ).

Since cadets is reconized by the army I think they should bring there standards up so they look like everybody else.

 

[Irish]

Now thats an exercise that I would be proud of. you see the CIC tend to treaT cadets more like boy scouts now days and use chap as an exuse to stop anything that might involve work or responsibility. My DSM and myself take our cadet corps on a 12km ruc march each time we have trg. in the bush. Sure not all our numbers go the whole distance but for the ones that do once they return to the biv they have a very strong sence of self and achivement, that in itself is worth leading them. sure we dont do section attacks but thats not what it‘s all about in the cadet system(although it would be intersting) :mg:

I‘m not sure about how it works in Halifax but in Ontario at some bases the cadets aren‘t even allowed to wear civi‘s, it‘s either PT geaR OR Combats what ever the dress of the day is. But i tent to agree on how some cadets should look more like cadets if we are to be assosiated with the millitary, mabe they shopuldent look like hippie‘s or punks etc.

 

[Jason Jarvis]

Well, it looks like I won‘t be joining the CIC any time soon. A friend of mine called a buddy of his in Shearwater to ask him about exemptions from the vision standards for CIC applicants, and he said they don‘t exist -- despite what the CFRC told me. On the plus side, however, colour vision doesn‘t matter for CIC officers, so at least I don‘t have to worry about that.

So I‘m going to volunteer as a civilian instructor with the 48th Highlanders RCACC. They‘re stuck into a corner in the basement at Moss Park and they could use my help. Like many cadet units -- especially inner city units -- they have a big problem with recruiting and keeping cadets, and since my job is all about developing strategy, planning and communicating, I think I could really help them out.

Listening to the pipes and drums of the 48th practice on Tuesday night brought back a flood of memories. When I was at Camp Argonaut in 1990, all the senior courses paraded through downtown Moncton in celebration of its 100th anniversary of being incorporated as a city. The cadet rifle instructor course served as the colour party, so we marched right behind the massed pipes and drums. They were so loud marching through the downtown that they could be heard for miles. It was great, the best parade ever -- even better than the 50th anniversary of the air cadets in 1992.

Since I‘m a little rusty and will be feeling my way for the next little while, don‘t be surprised if I ask a lot of questions on this forum of the BB. Any advice members care to give would be greatly appreciated!

Now, where‘s my kilt . . . ?

 

[Sgt.Fitzpatrick]

Is cadets becoming to soft? Tell me.I think cadets should be much harder and more like the army , air force and navy.
I think cadets should have more work outs . Some people think cadets are bad because they have kids who are "soldiers".
Whats so about have kids who want to sevre there Canada?

 

[Sgt.Fitzpatrick]

I 'm a cadet and I consider myself apart of the Canadain Forces, that what I think people in class think a green beret that can be fun they buy all my stories.

ME :"I drive tanks"
Kids in my class:"Cool"  :tank:

 

[Scratch_043]

Fitzpatrick, that is known as misrepresentation and fraud, and, ironically, if cadets were members of the CF, you would be charged for that impersonation of rank/position, etc.

take it easy, I'm just josh'n with ya

Added after posting:

I was also a cadet, and, yes, it was fun to dress up and play soldier, but make no mistake about it, cadets are not a part of the CF, in fact, My Sq. had some trouble because we were being housed, sponsored, etc. by the local air force wing.

 

[sgt_mandal]

I'm not arguing against anyone as I know that cadets are still very much civilians, but, if we are so civilian, than why are we still dressed in uniform, addressed by rank, taught by instructors (not teachers) and follow almost the exact same drill as members of the CF (among other things)? I know Cadets is supposed to "stimulate an interest in the Canadian Forces", but why lead us to believe things that aren't true, and by this I am referring to less learned cadets who think that because of all of the reasons mentioned above, think they are real soldiers. If they wanted to really stimulate and interest in the CF, then they should prepare us better so it's not such a smack in the face when we get "charged".

I hope you see the point I am so desperately trying to make.

 

[Lexi]

Cadets are civilians. Simple as that. So tell me again why we're arguing about it?  :-\
Cadets = Civilians. (Note the period.)

Lex

 

[combat_medic]

Boy scouts wear uniforms, have rank (in a sense), are taught by instructors, and do similar foot drill to the CF, but no one is asking if a 6-year old beaver scout is a civilian or not.

Cadets are a youth organization sponsored by the military, who have adopted similar aspects to military life, although a great deal of dissimilarities remain. A decade or two ago, cadets had a lot more strenuous training, handled heavier weapons, and could be treated more like soldiers, although this still didn't change the fact that they were kids and civilians. Since then, parents have complained about the training being "too military" and so the training has been seriously toned down. Also, at no point will any CIC instructor (at least a competant one) tell you that you are a soldier, or are anything other than a civilian. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's your choice, but it doesn't make it the truth, no matter what other cadets may tell you.

 

[mclipper]

Exactly!!!!!  Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.  They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.  They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.  Basically, they are just barely members of the CF. 

 

[Eowyn]

Exactly!!!!!   Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.   They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.   They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.   Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.  

Hmm... funny considering 4 of our officers transferred from the CIC.  In fact one is attached posted while their transfer goes through.  Of course for the transfer to be processed, they do have to meet the same standards as someone off the street.

 

[Scratch_043]

Exactly!!!!!   Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.   They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.   They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.   Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.  

CIC Officers are Part of the CF Reserves. they are in a sub group of reserves, but are no less soldiers than any other in a reserve unit. The lieutenant(now as captain, I believe) in my former Sq. served a few peacekeeping tours, so that is a complete BS line.

 

[mclipper]

If you read the CFAOs and QR & Os you would see I'm not making this up.  During the recruiting process, CIC applicants do not take the CFAT, they do not do the Express Test, and they also do not have to meet the same medical standards that everyone else does.  In order for them to join another branch of the CF, they are required to go back and do all of those things.  If you have officers in your unit that "transferred" without doing that, they are not there legally.  Sorry, like it or not, just stating facts.

 

[Redeye]

CIC Officers are Part of the CF Reserves. they are in a sub group of reserves, but are no less soldiers than any other in a reserve unit. The lieutenant(now as captain, I believe) in my former Sq. served a few peacekeeping tours, so that is a complete BS line.

He did his tours as a member of some other component, not as a member of the CIC.  CIC officers are members of the CF, as a subcomponent of the Primary Reserve, but I don't think anyone in the PRes or in the Reg F considers them soldiers unless they have actually previously served.  For them to transfer to a PRes unit entails the same process that a regular civilian would have to go to.  They don't have to meet anywhere near the same standards to join the CIC directly off the street.

That said, there are many, many CIC officers who are former soldiers, so you can't simply say that they all are or aren't soldiers without determining what else their careers have entailed.