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C3 Howitzer Replacement

If we were to deliver an anti-aircraft regiment to Kyiv do you think the locals would complain?

As for fixed

View attachment 79035View attachment 79036

I am persuaded that this is a "cake and eat it" solution. It can dropped off to defend a fixed location pro tem. It can be removed rapidly with no lasting scars. It can be operated in the portee mode. It can even be fired on the move. It can be transported on a light truck, an armoured truck, an APC, a boat or even underslung by helicopter.

I find it no different to the ubiquitous Bofors 40s, Oerlikon 20s or even Browning 50s. It is a package that can be employed and deployed widely as part of a system, as part of a network.


Precisely.



But the mobile system, and by that I mean the "dedicated" mobile system tailored for a specific task, like, for example, the 1970s vintage Gepard, costs more and is harder to deploy resulting in fewer guns on the ground, fewer shells in the air and fewer targets destroyed.... and more casualties on the ground.

View attachment 79037

The other major advantage of the SkyRanger turret over the Gepard turret is that it is unmanned so that when the guns attract return fire, as they inevitably will, and when the guns are destroyed, as they inevitably will be, only the gun is lost, not the four man crew serving the guns.
I get where you are going with the concept of commonality of systems to fulfill multiple roles. Where I think you're off is in the matter of scale. I think there is much more advantage in achieving commonality with a massive user base like the US Army than commonality within a relatively tiny user base within the CAF.
 
During the 1970-90s - No.

Canada had a very different air defence structure during the post WW2 period.

There were ground based mobile air defence units using both the 40mm Bofors and 90mm and fire control equipment in both the Reg and ResF. Those slowly petered out with the last RegF unit going to nil strength in 1957 and the last ResF units several years later.

The RCAF really bore the brunt of air defence in Canada from 1951 to 1975 with Air Defence Command which in the early years had a substantial ResF component. They flew a variety of aircraft over the years and also had the nuclear capable Bomarc missile. Like all good things, it too petered out.

🍻

Thanks I appreciate the info. This seems to be a somewhat forgotten but important history.
 
I get where you are going with the concept of commonality of systems to fulfill multiple roles. Where I think you're off is in the matter of scale. I think there is much more advantage in achieving commonality with a massive user base like the US Army than commonality within a relatively tiny user base within the CAF.
But the US is just trying to find its feet again in the GBAD field while Israel has been managing the problem for decades and Ukraine is creating a massive Europe wide market that the locals are exploiting.

Bofors is a Swedish company. Oerlikon is Swiss. Nammo is Norwegian.
 
This is absolutely true...

And yet Poland finds it necessary to back its forces all the up to its western border to buy them space and time against an eastern enemy despite the fact that the western border has historically been at least as problematic as the eastern border. The point is that there is no safe place in Poland, or any European country for the locals. The locals deserve a defence and that defence has to be more than the promise of eliminating their attacker at some indeterminate time in the future when, or if, the counter force achieves that aim.

Thus the popularity of Iron Dome in Israel, C-RAM at bases in Afghanistan and Anti-Aircraft Regiments in WW2 Britain.

Contrary to popular belief I am not against Canada generating a well-founded Mechanized Brigade Group. I support that concept and I think we can afford to do it well and we should do it well. My concern is that we seem to be focused on that outcome to the exclusion of all others. I understand there is a fight on for scarce dollars (although I am told there are more dollars available than we seem to manage to spend).

To put my position in historic terms I believe the army needs both a sword AND a shield in order to be a balanced force capable of managing a broad range of threats. The Mech Brigade is the sword. Every army needs one. But we have no shield.

Instead of this

View attachment 79033

I believe our Canadian Army looks more like this

View attachment 79034

The fencer is offensively oriented, has to stay actively engaged to defend, is poorly protected, tied to a piste and has little staying power despite being well trained.

We have a sabre. We need a shield as well.



If we were to deliver an anti-aircraft regiment to Kyiv do you think the locals would complain?

As for fixed

View attachment 79035View attachment 79036

I am persuaded that this is a "cake and eat it" solution. It can dropped off to defend a fixed location pro tem. It can be removed rapidly with no lasting scars. It can be operated in the portee mode. It can even be fired on the move. It can be transported on a light truck, an armoured truck, an APC, a boat or even underslung by helicopter.

I find it no different to the ubiquitous Bofors 40s, Oerlikon 20s or even Browning 50s. It is a package that can be employed and deployed widely as part of a system, as part of a network.


Precisely.



But the mobile system, and by that I mean the "dedicated" mobile system tailored for a specific task, like, for example, the 1970s vintage Gepard, costs more and is harder to deploy resulting in fewer guns on the ground, fewer shells in the air and fewer targets destroyed.... and more casualties on the ground.

View attachment 79037

The other major advantage of the SkyRanger turret over the Gepard turret is that it is unmanned so that when the guns attract return fire, as they inevitably will, and when the guns are destroyed, as they inevitably will be, only the gun is lost, not the four man crew serving the guns.

My overall take?

1 Canadian Div takes over the command of

6 CCSB
1, 2 and 5 CMBGs and
1 Wing.

1,2 and 5 CMBGs lose 3 RCR/PPCLI/R22eR to 1 Wing to create a tactical heliportable formation alongside 1,2 and 5 CMBGs.

1,2 and 5 CMBGs revert to a 4 CMBG configuration of 2 Infantry Battalions in LAVs and 1 Armoured Regiment as well as an Arty Regiment.

The Armoured Regiment I would turn that into an entirely black-hatted combined arms regiment, with Leos and LAVs unless and until a heavy tracked IFV/APC is procured.

The Arty, the man of the hour in this discussion, I propose, takes full advantage of the high level of automation being adopted by all other armies and increase the number of guns per regimental bodies. And in increasing the number of guns increase the variety of tasks the guns can fulfil. I would also take advantage of the range increases and the reduction in volumes of fire (and I accept that is a contentious statement but even with the high expenditure rates being seen in Ukraine many targets are being eliminated by "plinking" that would previously required a barrage). Also, reducing the sense to shoot time demands that capabilities, especially command and control, be pushed forwards and down. That also necessitates more dispersion of the guns rather than concentration with effects being concentrated on target while the guns are dispersed.

As for the Brigadiers back in Canada that have lost their CMBGs they will have to build their JTFs around their Reserve troops and this is where I truly think that modularity works for us because dropping off a turret and a Fire Control Station at every armoury and Naval Reserve Division would result in a common basis of training, with assets that could come in handy locally and which can also be easily extracted and deployed domestically or internationally, afloat or ashore, statically or on the move. And reserve gunners available to man them as part of a co-ordinated network that can be exercised virtually on Wednesday nights.

Edit-

A turret an an FCS at all 150 armouries and 24 NRDs might be a bit excessive. But one set for each Arty Regiment and Independent Battery as well as the 24 NRDs should be doable. That would be about 50 sets. Additional sets could be held in storage.
Your not going to reduce manning as the guns will need to be reloaded and that when they are likley to be be spotted, after expending their ammo load. I hope there is an opportunity for a manned and unmanned system to operate in the same area, along with a single verse two gun system, where response time, targeting and success rates can be compared for future planning. So far it seems most of what we know of unmanned systems is sales material. This is an opportunity to see what they really can do.
 
Your not going to reduce manning as the guns will need to be reloaded and that when they are likley to be be spotted, after expending their ammo load. I hope there is an opportunity for a manned and unmanned system to operate in the same area, along with a single verse two gun system, where response time, targeting and success rates can be compared for future planning. So far it seems most of what we know of unmanned systems is sales material. This is an opportunity to see what they really can do.

Or, putting it another way, seeing how much we can get out of them. The difference is that I would buy the guns and make them work to whatever maximum potential they have rather than sit around waiting to find out what the future is going to look like while our guns and gunners melt away.
 
Unless any of those designs can be made to fit on a MILCOT or Gwagon no way is the Canadian Army getting any of them.

If MilCOT or Gwagon type vehicles includes this array of solutions

1690303872550.png1690303905286.png

Then these solutions are possible

1690303943144.png1690303992912.png
Saab's MSHORAD and Elbit's 30x173 Bushmaster Mk44 RWS on a JLTV.

And I those weapons, I believe, could just as easily be mounted on a standalone plinth that could be placed in the back of the pickup.

1690304382352.png
 
If not the LUV replacement (up to 2 tonnes in the bed) how about using the LVM(Light) with a 4-5 tonne load and capable of carrying an 8x10 Bicon?

Flat deck with ISO locks for 10’ module
 Approximately 4-5 Tonne capacity (based on the heaviest amongst the fourteen LVM light modules)
 Single common design
 Crew of 2
Prototype armour protection kits solution
Runflats and fuel tank protection, with armour protection kits, are part of the armour protection system

 
1690306018787.png

Question: Is that a battery, a troop or a section?

It has 6 guns but only 12 gunners.
 
But the US is just trying to find its feet again in the GBAD field while Israel has been managing the problem for decades and Ukraine is creating a massive Europe wide market that the locals are exploiting.
Which gives a great opportunity for Canadian industry to get in on the ground floor in participating in what will end up being a huge market. Likely larger by an order of magnitude than anything produced for Israel, Sweden, Poland, France, Germany, etc.
 
And we have a leading company in Quebec we could exploit

 
I call it a Battery with 2-3 troops. 3 guns per troop is better. but 3 troops is better to cover a moving formation.

Fair enough. So how many of those batteries can you make from a C3 battery? Or an M777 battery?

And does size really matter if two gunners and a truck could swap the twin 14.5s for a HIMARS pod or a 155mm Artillery Gun Module?

And does that mean more batteries per regiment or more regiments?
 
Did we have AD for our RCAF fields in Canada as well ?
I should partially take back what I said earlier. We did have ADATS at Cold Lake for several years after 2000. I think, but am not sure, that their purpose was to assist in training RCAF pilots. They were not there in an AD role per se. This blended in as well with the Direct Fire Unit concept which had ADATS working with the LdSH(RC) in the AT role.

🍻
 
I'd call it a colossal waste of time...
Optical sighting kind of went out in WW2.

That is the sort of thing that makes people feel good, as opposed to actually doing anything.

OK.

6 Remotely Operated Sky Ranger turrets. A battery, troop or section? A Lieutenant, Captain, Major or a Warrant in charge?
 
I'd call it a colossal waste of time...
Optical sighting kind of went out in WW2.

That is the sort of thing that makes people feel good, as opposed to actually doing anything.
Still significantly better than what we have and far more likley to get ammunition resupply given our penny pinching government. Plus firing them on the basic AD course will be a definite high point for a Reservist gunner or even a Reg Force one, which will make a break from simulator practice. Judging by video's I seen these do decently against slower drones like the Iranian ones and can be used to fill out the gaps between Manpads and hopefully some more up to date SHORAD.
 
OK.

6 Remotely Operated Sky Ranger turrets. A battery, troop or section? A Lieutenant, Captain, Major or a Warrant in charge?
Battery, Captain in charge.
But I doubt you will see anyone willing to remote operate something like that without some significant security measures- which will most likely eat up your PY savings
 
View attachment 79046

Question: Is that a battery, a troop or a section?

It has 6 guns but only 12 gunners.
I’d call that a range practice, and wouldn’t take any judgment in overall order of battle from that.

“A high point for a young reservist gunner” is not a worth while reason to procure an AD platform. I suspect offset by the realization at the crippling lot outdated platform they operate.
 
Battery, Captain in charge.
But I doubt you will see anyone willing to remote operate something like that without some significant security measures- which will most likely eat up your PY savings

I'd agree.

Gunners supplying security or Reservists supplying Vital Point guards?
 
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