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C3 Howitzer Replacement

Kirkhill said:
So you intend to expend the regular force in one 72 hour battle at one place while you will leave the reserves to continue the war on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the cities and in the hills.

The more I see of the situation in Ukraine the less I think the CAF is mentally equipped to fight a war. Wars are more than just battles. The Cold War left the impression that there would be no more Wars. The A-Bomb did what the Maxim Gun was supposed to have done in WWI. If war were to break out it would be a "One and Done" affair. 72 hours and everybody is dead or goes home.

Ukraine continues the trend of Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Eritrea..... We, the West, go in ready to fight battles. The locals stand back, lean on the ropes and let us take the round. They come back. This time we are doing the "right" thing. We are backing the locals.

We are not backing "change".
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How long would we last if we went into battle today and at least with what I propose, you have some slack to give to your allies.
 
FJAG said:
My first AVCON roto was the winter of 1970/71 and I lived through that arty slaughter. Went on an NBCW course in Borden right after coming back from AVCON and found my Battery - H Battery - had disappeared and the regiment was half the size it was before I went to AVCON. There were no spare gunners after that - hell, I never saw a battery with more than 80% of the peacetime establishment (except briefly in the mid-Seventies when they stood up air defence)

The first artillery trials there were held in 1959 and the program went online in 1962. It was done in conjunction with a massive construction project of snowsheds on both the highway and the rail line through there. The Trans Canada only opened up in the 1950s. Up until the TCH opened, the pass was mainly a rail route. Rogers Pass was deadly and they had over 200 people had died in the pass. 62 workers alone died when a second avalanche hit them in 1910 while they were digging out a train caught in a prior slide.

If I recall in my talks with the Schleiss brothers back then, artillery was the favoured solution from their point of view because of several factors:

1. guns delivered a consistent result in all weather conditions which you wouldn't be able to do with helicopter dropped explosives or pneumatically delivered ones. Literally, a half mill deviation on some crest triggers would end up with a round flying over the mountain.

2. The 106mm recoilless rifle has a limited range which would not be able to reach many of the slide trigger points and also had elevation limitations to shoot uphill. We did use a 75mm pack howitzer for plinking non-standard targets until the ammo ran out but it was an issue as without brakes and no soil to dig the spade into it would skitter across the frozen road and shoulders every time we fired it.

3. the priority mission was to keep the rail lines open and secondly the road with the least interruptions possible. It's basically a no fail mission. They get 400 inches of snowfall every year and as I mentioned earlier, many of the shoots are in the middle of blizzards. The trick is to get the avalanche triggered early as the snow falls so that the slide never builds enough mass to actually reaches the rail line or the road. I recall one shoot that lasted three full days in a blizzard and we slept in the trucks while they opened the road and rail line for an hour or two now and then to let traffic through.

IMHO using military equipment and ammunition conforms to a military task. The fact that you can train a civilian to do it is beside the fact. I'm not sure I want a bunch of civilians in charge of artillery and high explosive rounds. The CAF does lots of things that are not "military" in nature - flood and fire fighting are just some examples. AVCON is more military than that.

Anyhow - Fun times. We never had problems finding volunteers for it then. (Those were the days when there was a hotel with staff and a heated outdoor pool at the summit)

Here's a little booklet on it.

🍻
Click to expand...

Good read and link!

Thanks for the history lesson! We had a Capt in our HQ head out on that task this year. Sounds like it would be a great experience; and like you say a good skill and leadership building opportunity for the ARes.
 
Kirkhill said:
So you intend to expend the regular force in one 72 hour battle at one place while you will leave the reserves to continue the war on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the cities and in the hills.

The more I see of the situation in Ukraine the less I think the CAF is mentally equipped to fight a war. Wars are more than just battles. The Cold War left the impression that there would be no more Wars. The A-Bomb did what the Maxim Gun was supposed to have done in WWI. If war were to break out it would be a "One and Done" affair. 72 hours and everybody is dead or goes home.

Ukraine continues the trend of Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Eritrea..... We, the West, go in ready to fight battles. The locals stand back, lean on the ropes and let us take the round. They come back. This time we are doing the "right" thing. We are backing the locals.

We are not backing "change".
Click to expand...
It isn't just change, it's a total disregard to the point of a Military (and Reserve Force).
 
daftandbarmy said:
But... but... but.... it's the Army's version of the Snowbirds ;)
Click to expand...
Maybe not the Snowbirds - perhaps Search and Rescue?

Civvy jobs done by the Kingsmen.

The Snowbirds are more like the Band of the Household Brigade.
 
KevinB said:
It isn't just change, it's a total disregard to the point of a Military (and Reserve Force).
Click to expand...

You're point is taken but I expressed myself poorly.
The "change" I was talking about was in our target countries. What we have been doing, IMO, is going into countries that have been giving us problems. The problem countries generally have the backing of their governing party and the capital city and own the army. Those carry with them the support of a lot of the population.

We then seek to find local opposition to the government, to turn over the whole mess in 72 hours then go home.

Having backed "change".
 
Kirkhill said:
You're point is taken but I expressed myself poorly.
The "change" I was talking about was in our target countries. What we have been doing, IMO, is going into countries that have been giving us problems. The problem countries generally have the backing of their governing party and the capital city and own the army. Those carry with them the support of a lot of the population.

We then seek to find local opposition to the government, to turn over the whole mess in 72 hours then go home.

Having backed "change".
Click to expand...
I disagree - I think that works in some places, but for lasting change you need to totally rebuild the country - like Post WW2 Japan and Germany.
 
KevinB said:
I disagree - I think that works in some places, but for lasting change you need to totally rebuild the country - like Post WW2 Japan and Germany.
Click to expand...

I agree completely with your German and Japanese examples. Although currently Japan looks like a better outcome than Germany, despite that little hiccup in the 90s when we looked at Japan the way we look at China now - a major commercial headache.

China has piled a military headache on top of that though.

We just don't have the inclination to take a country by the hand and lead it over the long haul. And we don't have the resources to do that for a couple of dozen countries. They have to want to come along with us.

If your intention is just to smash the annoyance into smithereens....

I suggest you look at the dandelion.
It is a tolerable plant when it is green. It earns its keep by being edible and it largely stays out of sight
Once it comes into flower it isn't fugly ... but it is an annoyance that invites attention
And if you don't give it the necessary attention ...
Once it is in full bloom it is both ugly and dangerous.
If you decide to treat if at that stage by smashing it to smithereens

You end up with hundreds of potential new dandelions scattered hither and yon - populating your yard, your neighour's, vacant lots and your enemies' yards.

And the original dandelion comes back next year.
Even nuking them doesn't work.
And chemical and biological warfare just ensures that you will select for resistant dandelions that will require you to find new ways of killing them.

Thistles, on the other hand, they can be trained.

gardenofeaden.blogspot.com

HOW TO GROW MILK THISTLE - Silybum marianum

A blog about gardening, plants, horticulture, wildlife, animals, and the environment
gardenofeaden.blogspot.com gardenofeaden.blogspot.com
 
They could have done a better job of the installation. Those pavers haven't been replaced. And they should have been trimmed to match the circumference of the platform.

But still....
 
SeaKingTacco said:
And shrubbery? Where is the Shrubbery?
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monty python coconut GIF
 
Colin Parkinson said:
Yes that was the gun I was using as inspiration. Could be pulled by a crewcab milcot. Use the GDLS 25mm Chaingun instead. Each gun detachment could have one of these and a Manpad simulator. Two gun detachments make up a Troop with a TSM and Troop Officer with their own vehicle. So 10 people, 3 vehicles, two guns and two Manpads.
The detachments learn the fieldcraft. The TSM's oversess that, the Troop Officer focuses on the integration with the Gun Battery and HQ which determines the placement and movements of the Troop. Regular Force focuses on the integration of the SHOAD into the whole AD and aviation net. Do the same with the UAV Drones, starting with one detachment and then growing it to a Troop as well. It's not like Reserve artillery is going to have any guns left by the next decade anyways (Maybe they give them the old 60mm mortars to play with). At least here Reserve Artillery can be useful.

For reference
20_mm_anti-aircraft_gun_of_the_Bundeswehr.JPEG
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Bumping this because Leonardo is jumping on the 30mm train. It seems as if 30mm is becoming something of a sweet spot: the smallest round that can currently be fitted with AHEAD technology?

New lightweight RWS turrets for both land and sea.

Leonardo introduces advanced defence systems for maritime vessels and ground-based vehicles – Vanguard

vanguardcanada.com vanguardcanada.com

This bit is the bit that stands out for me:

Lionfish 30 for sea duty

the turret boasts a 360° surveillance and tracking capability facilitated by its electro-optical suite.
Click to expand...

1686495402134.png


For vehicles

the HITFIST® 30 UL (Unmanned Light) remote-controlled turret. This variant is more compact and lighter than other members of the HITFIST family, making it suitable for installation on weight-constrained vehicles, including amphibious models. It effectively neutralizes asymmetrical threats using air burst ammunition


1686495652023.png

According to Leonardo product specifications, the Hitfist 30 UL can operate either in ‘hunter-killer’ or in ‘killer-killer’ (firing from panoramic sight) modes through the use of an aiming sight and a panoramic sight, which are both fully stabilized in elevation and azimuth and provided with a day camera, a thermal night camera and a laser rangefinder. The Hitfist 30 UL is managed by either one or two stations (depending on configuration), which include a display and two joysticks that allow complete control of the turret with both sighting systems.
Click to expand...

euro-sd.com

Leonardo Launches New Turret Systems at Seafuture

Leonardo launched two new turrets at the Seafuture exhibition.
euro-sd.com euro-sd.com

Leonardo introduces advanced defence systems for maritime vessels and ground-based vehicles – Vanguard

vanguardcanada.com vanguardcanada.com
 
Long Range Hypersonic Weapons
SM6s (which the Navy will probably want to fill its VLS silos)
Tomahawks
Precision Strike Missiles
ATACMs
GLSDBs
GMRLS-ERs
Extended Range Cannon Artillery
Paladins

And M777s

A plea for the US Army to get off the pot and make a decision on a truck mounted Cannon pointing to the success of the CESARs in Ukraine and the adoption of the Swedish Archer by BAE.


 
Here is a very interesting piece about the US and large gun tube manufacturing. For those saying we should do that here....have a read.

www.defensenews.com

The US Army arsenal from 1813 that’s building weapons for Ukraine

The pace of battle in Eastern Europe is highlighting the need to outgun the enemy, a difficult task given the strength of Russia’s artillery.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

I did not realize the US army had just one tube manufacturing site. 143 acres and they make just a few hundred a year. Yes the navy has one too.

Plus back many pages ago I put some numbers about setting manufacturing here I was wrong by factor of 10.
 
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