C3 Howitzer Replacement

[KevinB]

Same argument some Americans use to attempt to justify dropping two atomic bombs on a bunch of civilians. At least with that example it was a legitimate military target.

The use of the Atomic bombs saved millions of lives. It was estimated that over 6million casualties would occur if the Japanese home islands needed to be invaded.

 

[GK .Dundas]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1631235839924793344

not exactly a replacement for a 105mm but simple truck and big boom

When I first read that it came across as Austrian coastal artillery.
My thoughts were one , did something of a geopolitical event happen that I didn't know about? And two, if not that some really long range coastal artillery!

 

[Kirkhill]

When I first read that it came across as Austrian coastal artillery.
My thoughts were one , did something of a geopolitical event happen that I didn't know about? And two, if not that some really long range coastal artillery!

Actually - the closest point of approach of the Austrian Border to salt water is the Gulf of Trieste - 90 km from the pass at Coccau Vilaco.

Those NSMs have a range of more than 185 km. Probably over 200 km if launched from elevation.

 

[FJAG]

Elbit Systems Awarded ATMOS and PULS Contracts | Joint Forces News

Elbit Systems awarded two contracts in an aggregate amount of $252 million to supply ATMOS and PULS artillery systems to a NATO country.

www.joint-forces.com

as much as I think we should have American stuff, this seems cheap doesnt it?

PULS (multiple rocket launcher) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quite frankly when you are talking the scale that we are buying at, you could have a custom vehicle fabrication shop build the launcher system in Canada from an existing heavy logistics vehicle for standardization. That takes care of the Canadian content. The fire control system is easy and also available.

The important thing is that it be able to take standardized foreign built missile pods. Building the missiles/rockets are the harder part at the scale we buy.

 

[KevinB]

Quite frankly when you are talking the scale that we are buying at, you could have a custom vehicle fabrication shop build the launcher system in Canada from an existing heavy logistics vehicle for standardization. That takes care of the Canadian content. The fire control system is easy and also available.

The important thing is that it be able to take standardized foreign built missile pods. Building the missiles/rockets are the harder part at the scale we buy.

Or you could just buy HIMARS cheaper…

 

[FJAG]

Or you could just buy HIMARS cheaper…

Sure, but then the politicians wouldn't be able to hold a presser in front of Aaron's Custom Truck's workshop in Rimouski and talk about the Canadian content on this little project and how there is work for 15 custom welders for a year. And if you start off with an existing HLVW, maybe it can be cheaper. Missiles are just ammo. It's the truck that's the sexy item to the civvies.

 

[Kirkhill]

Or you could just buy HIMARS cheaper…

You need more factories of all kinds. We want our share too. Just like Rheinmetall and the Aussies.

Get your thumb out and invest in GDOTS Canada Arsenal.

 

[Kirkhill]

Rheinmetall in Talks With Lockheed to Produce HIMARS in Germany: CEO

Rheinmetall is in talks with Lockheed Martin to start producing the HIMARS in Germany, CEO Armin Papperger revealed this week.

www.thedefensepost.com

Australia to produce its own guided missiles as part of billion-dollar defence manufacturing plan

Australia will move to produce its own guided missiles under a $1 billion plan to establish a new weapons facility with a global arms manufacturer.

www.abc.net.au

Lockheed, Thales move to bolster Aussie's $1B AUD sovereign missile push - Breaking Defense

"Lockheed Martin will deliver and transfer to Australia the same level of technology and development and advanced programs and systems that we have in our factories in United States," Pat Sunderlin, VP of operations for Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, said.

breakingdefense.com

Army Taps GD OTS, American Ordnance For $993.8 Million Deal To Boost 155mm Ammo Production - Defense Daily

The Army has selected General Dynamics Ordnance & Tactical Systems and American Ordnance to compete for orders to produce 155mm artillery rounds under

www.defensedaily.com

Munitions Supply Program – Electronics, munitions and tactical systems - Defence Procurement - Buying and Selling - PSPC Services - Home

Learn about the Government of Canada’s Munitions Supply Program.

www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca

Ammonopoly: General Dynamics’ sweet deal to supply Canada’s ammunition

Canada gets almost all of its ammunition from a single source—American defence giant General Dynamics—and we pay $70 million a year for the privilege

www.theglobeandmail.com

General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems - Canada

A world-class developer and manufacturer of all-caliber ammunition and energetic materials intended for the military and armed police forces.

www.gd-otscanada.com

 

[suffolkowner]

Or you could just buy HIMARS cheaper…

whats a HIMARS cost?

• Under the second contract in an amount of $133 million, Elbit Systems will provide two batteries worth of PULS artillery rocket-launcher systems including a package of rockets and missiles. The contract will be performed over a period of three years.

are they getting the 16 trucks for that price or just the launchers? And all 5 possible launch pods?

 

[Kirkhill]

Utility of HIMARS - 10 minutes on the ground.

Australia Considering HIMARS ‘Fire Raid’ With C-130J Transport Aircraft

Australia is considering using Lockheed Martin C-130J tactical transport aircraft for HIMARS “shoot and scoot” maneuvers close to enemy lines.

www.thedefensepost.com

 

[Furniture]

Or you could just buy HIMARS cheaper…

Buying HIMARS from the US doesn't buy regional votes... I'm sure for a UOR we would, but if it's for a sustained fleet of them, I suspect we'll pay 3x the price to have something made assembled in Canada.

 

[Kirkhill]

For starters we would want the launcher mounted on an MSVS SMP for fleet commonality. Otherwise you have a micro fleet of FMTVs

 

[KevinB]

For starters we would want the launcher mounted on an MSVS SMP for fleet commonality. Otherwise you have a micro fleet of FMTVs

That nearly every other nation uses…

 

[FJAG]

Just a little blast from the past

Sigh. The 45C tac/callsign indicates its a gun from 1 RCHA's Z Bty in Germany. Those were the days when there were 4 six-gun batteries in the regiment which at the time had as many guns as all three of the RegF regiments now have combined. And we had another six batteries just like them back in Canada as well as three light G1 batteries and the 105mm C1s all worked.

Just in case some of you are wondering about why I wax nostalgic at times.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just a little blast from the past

Sigh. The 45C tac/callsign indicates its a gun from 1 RCHA's Z Bty in Germany. Those were the days when there were 4 six-gun batteries in the regiment which at the time had as many guns as all three of the RegF regiments now have combined. And we had another six batteries just like them back in Canada as well as three light G1 batteries and the 105mm C1s all worked.

Just in case some of you are wondering about why I wax nostalgic at times.

And all we need now are about three of those regiments, for a start, right?

 

[Kirkhill]

What happens if....

6 Armoured Sqns with 10 gun tanks, 4 mortars, 3 AEVs, 1 ARV, 2 CPs and 1 FOV - with two spare sets in storage
6 LAV Bns with 3x 15 LAV-30 (Primary local AD weapons also capable of engaging ground targets) and 3x 4 mortars .... etc
3 Arty Regiments with 6x SPH batteries of 8 plus 3 HIMARS batteries of 12 (yes a big battery of 3 troops of 4 in order to get the weight of fire - still only 24 to 36 gunners for 12 HIMARS.

1 GBAD regiment - TBD

3 Light Infantry Battalions
2 UTTH Squadrons
1 MHLH Squadron

For fire support the Light troops reach back to the heavier forces and bring small elements into theater with them when they deploy.

Reserves - TBD

 

[FJAG]

And all we need now are about three of those regiments, for a start, right?

I keep saying, the question is what does the army want to be when it grows up. It's one thing for them to fumble around with what they have available right now but we're a long way away from Advancing with Purpose. The Bosnia and nacent Afghanistan world that created it are long gone. Our strategic vision from those days needs to be seriously questioned for a world that seems to be much more challenging then it was then.

I've been advocating for a while that we need to restructure so that we can grow into what we want to become. To me that includes more brigades with a heavily integrated reserve force structure to keep costs in line. I think that any plan to maintain our three revolving brigades structure supported through a managed readiness system is fatally (and I do mean fatally) flawed.

Honestly, I think that it's time for one CDS after another who finds himself unable to convince the government and his fellow GOFOs that the time for change has come should resign and start a press tour. Of course that will only lead to the appointment of one from the herd of the numerous kowtowing GOFOs to get the job and carry on wasting 25 or so billion a year on an ever more dissatisfied uniformed civil service that delivers a mediocre amount of combat capability.

Hell yeah, I'm frustrated! Force 2025 built up too much hope. Now they're just back to dog f***ing.

 

[Kirkhill]

I keep saying, the question is what does the army want to be when it grows up. It's one thing for them to fumble around with what they have available right now but we're a long way away from Advancing with Purpose. The Bosnia and nacent Afghanistan world that created it are long gone. Our strategic vision from those days needs to be seriously questioned for a world that seems to be much more challenging then it was then.

I've been advocating for a while that we need to restructure so that we can grow into what we want to become. To me that includes more brigades with a heavily integrated reserve force structure to keep costs in line. I think that any plan to maintain our three revolving brigades structure supported through a managed readiness system is fatally (and I do mean fatally) flawed.

Honestly, I think that it's time for one CDS after another who finds himself unable to convince the government and his fellow GOFOs that the time for change has come should resign and start a press tour. Of course that will only lead to the appointment of one from the herd of the numerous kowtowing GOFOs to get the job and carry on wasting 25 or so billion a year on an ever more dissatisfied uniformed civil service that delivers a mediocre amount of combat capability.

Hell yeah, I'm frustrated! Force 2025 built up too much hope. Now they're just back to dog f***ing.

FJAG - there is no inclination anywhere to do things on the scale of even1900 when Rifle Regiments for Everyone were the order of the day. Much less WW1 and WW2.

The Cold War effort was, as you have said yourself many times, a come as you are effort with some show forces to be engaged before the skies lit up.

It's just not in the nature of this society.

 

[suffolkowner]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1632737240492154881

6.9 million pounds=ouch
also 25 tonnes on 3 axles/6wheels

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Same argument some Americans use to attempt to justify dropping two atomic bombs on a bunch of civilians. At least with that example it was a legitimate military target.

I think by the time war in the Pacific was drawing to a close and the only thing stopping it from being over the planned invasion of the main islands of Japan. People were tired of the war, some of them been fighting the war for 3 and half years and never saw any where close to home and could not see the end ever coming.

Every Allied force was getting ready to send troops to assist in the invasion fleet and force. Other Japanese Islands they fought to the last man standing then forced the civilian population to commit suicide on mass. US Forces estimated 400 000 to 800 000 dead, between 1.4 and 1.7 million wounded. Plus another 5 to 10 million Japanese dead.

The Americans had already had piled up huge stats in the Island hopping campaign.
The total dead or missing were 41,592 for all U.S. Army ground troops in the Pacific and southeast Asia, with another 145,706 wounded. The Marine Corps and attached Navy corpsmen suffered total casualties of 23,160 killed or missing and 67,199 wounded. The U.S. Navy lost 31,157 killed in action out of a total of 62,858 combat casualties in the Pacific, a figure of nearly 50%. The U.S. Army Air Forces lost 15,694 dead and missing out of a total of 24,230 casualties in the Pacific, a figure of 65%.

Japan reported over 2.12 million troops dead over the course of the war. This did not include the civilian deaths from bombings and suicide.

Not saying the atomic bomb was the only answer but how many lives did it save? How many lives did it ruin?

Hard to argue the invasion would of been better or worse ? We have to remember that the numbers equal to people. How many people were saved by the bombings?

Not a choice I would want to decide as to what way was the better solution at the time.