C3 Howitzer Replacement

[markppcli]

Don't come into this thread with reasonable, and realistic suggestions....

You’re right sorry. We shall continue to organize the reserves based on the desires of various service and heritage clubs in 1897. It’s not important that Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Victoria have access to certain facilities. It’s important we have one platoon commanded by a Lt Col Regiment that wears kilts and one that doesn’t in as many cities as humanly as possible.

How dare you @Spencer100 thats the finest armoured vehicle we can produce ! It’s “armoured” and can carry people. Ergo it’s an APC and we should buy as man as possible.

 

[Spencer100]

You’re right sorry. We shall continue to organize the reserves based on the desires of various service and heritage clubs in 1897. It’s not important that Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Victoria have access to certain facilities. It’s important we have one platoon commanded by a Lt Col Regiment that wears kilts and one that doesn’t in as many cities as humanly as possible.

How dare you @Spencer100 thats the finest armoured vehicle we can produce ! It’s “armoured” and can carry people. Ergo it’s an APC and we should buy as man as possible.

Senator

INKAS


TERRADYNE Gurkha

 

[IKnowNothing]

Frankly our small budget means we should be buying existing, proven, already developed equipment. Not going it alone and spending money on R&D to drive up cost and time.

Ironically enough the primary point of the post that triggered this tangent was just that- to use a ready to go US system to create multi-effect reserve AD dets rather than developing a bespoke towed AA gun.

 

[Kirkhill]

The problem arose.

Is the system the out of production turret, the out of production missile or the vehicle which is being replaced?

2004 26 Avenger Battalions
2017 9 Battalions (2 US ARMY 7 ARNG)

Are missiles, even out of production ones, the best answer to 3000 USD commercial drones?

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

You’re right sorry. We shall continue to organize the reserves based on the desires of various service and heritage clubs in 1897. It’s not important that Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Victoria have access to certain facilities. It’s important we have one platoon commanded by a Lt Col Regiment that wears kilts and one that doesn’t in as many cities as humanly as possible.

How dare you @Spencer100 thats the finest armoured vehicle we can produce ! It’s “armoured” and can carry people. Ergo it’s an APC and we should buy as man as possible.

There was a RegF kilted Regiment up until 1970. Rumors of a Black Watch Cpl into the 80s was at Gagetown as barrack warden. Never in Gagetown but heard the rumor. A lot of history is lost when Regiments are taken out of service

The Militia history predates most of the Reg Force units, some Militia units now claiming 200 years of service that predates Canada.

Before major cut backs in the 60s and 70s some Militia units paraded huge numbers, the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish Regiment at its final parade in the Renfrew Armouries had over 500 men on parade shoulder to shoulder to shoulder. That was before they got paid well or as often as they do now. ( I forget the exact numbers, but every Company was on parade, from Perth, Pembroke, Renfrew, Carleton Place, Almonte, and other communities in the 2 counties.

Times have changed the make up , the size and the locations of Reserve Regiments, but without the historical background, there would be almost no reserve units.

 

[KevinB]

The problem arose.

Is the system the out of production turret, the out of production missile or the vehicle which is being replaced?

2004 26 Avenger Battalions
2017 9 Battalions (2 US ARMY 7 ARNG)

Are missiles, even out of production ones, the best answer to 3000 USD commercial drones?

You guys where not the only ones asleep at the Switch with GWOT ‘Lessons Learned’

1) I wouldn’t recommend the Avenger for Canada for anything more than a crisis stopgap.

2) MSHORAD M-SHORAD system bolsters Army’s air defense capabilities
Given the CA’s LAV fleet, it’s the only logical system
It could also be static mounted, with wheels for road travel (like Skyguard) - which could be a decent option for PRes AD units - as it is vehicle agnostic.
The added bonus is that the ‘trailer’ versions could be primarily training, and LAV units could take trained PRes crews for everything but the Driver/CC very easily.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Sc

You guys where not the only ones asleep at the Switch with GWOT ‘Lessons Learned’

1) I wouldn’t recommend the Avenger for Canada for anything more than a crisis stopgap.

2) MSHORAD M-SHORAD system bolsters Army’s air defense capabilities
Given the CA’s LAV fleet, it’s the only logical system
It could also be static mounted, with wheels for road travel (like Skyguard) - which could be a decent option for PRes AD units - as it is vehicle agnostic.
The added bonus is that the ‘trailer’ versions could be primarily training, and LAV units could take trained PRes crews for everything but the Driver/CC very easily.

Wellllll, since you brought it up I'd say given the current world situation and the state of our military and in particular our AD capability.
I'd have say we are in a crisis and almost desperately need that gap filled.

 

[KevinB]

Sc

Wellllll, since you brought it up I'd say given the current world situation and the state of our military and in particular our AD capability.
I'd have say we are in a crisis and almost desperately need that gap filled.

Is someone shooting at you?
Y/N
If No, then no crisis…

Since Canada isn’t currently in a shooting war, I’d suggest it has some time to sort out the situation. Not a lot of time, but adoption of near obsolete systems isn’t a good way forward.

 

[IKnowNothing]

The problem arose.

Is the system the out of production turret, the out of production missile or the vehicle which is being replaced?

I didn't mention the Avenger, MADIS is not Avenger. Entered (limited) production last year.

 

[KevinB]

Further to the above.
As @Kirkhill likes to quote DR, and you go to war with the Army (Military) you have, not the one you want.
I would suggest that it makes sense to get the Military you want before rounds start flying.

So back to the C3 replacement;
What makes the most sense for the CA?

I don’t think a 105mm does, simply because the range limits.
Quite frankly I think the RCA PRes is a mess, even without the C3 issues. When the RCHA went (back) to 155mm, what did the C3 do? A trg gun
In the current day, with digital FCS, pretty much all actual requirements of a training gun can be done with simulators, combined with some live fire training.

Which means that the Armories really don’t need to store howitzers etc. Other than units who have ceremonial salute functions, which don’t need to be done with live guns.

Manpower is an issue for the PRes, so what combinations make sense?

Frankly I’d see HIMAR make a lot more sense for a lot of the units - it’s a truck with a pod.
The simulators for it are pretty solid - and the vehicles could be centrally based at training centers. I think 3 Reg’t of 18-24 HIMAR’s each would be a pretty solid addition for the CA, they don’t take a lot of bodies (other than the ammo train) and have multiple payloads.

It’s not really a CS system - and there needs to be something for the Bde Maneuver units, beyond the limited M777’s in the RCHA/RALC.
Shifting the M777 to 2 Bde would allow PRes Ont units to support 2 RCHA with 3 8 gun Bty’s

Then get ~50 ish M109A7 for 1 and 5 Bde
Use the Quebec and Alberta PRes Arty for bringing up gun numbers for them at 3 8 gun Bty each.

That leaves the rest of the RCA units for GBAD, and STA - and I’m not sure that STA shouldn’t be it’s own trade in the CAF due to the bleed into ISR/JSTAR

 

[FJAG]

Is someone shooting at you?
Y/N
If No, then no crisis…

Since Canada isn’t currently in a shooting war, I’d suggest it has some time to sort out the situation. Not a lot of time, but adoption of near obsolete systems isn’t a good way forward.

Getting shot at isn't the sole determinant of a crisis.

If you believe that deterrence actually means something - and I very much do - then a period where your deterrence capability is close to zero, also creates a crisis. Something needs to be done about it.

Where I diverge from much of the discussion is that I think that tinkering with structures (which includes the component parts of that structure) has to come after you've done the critical thinking about what the force is supposed to accomplish.

This is why I keep dwelling on a divisional context for the army, not because our deploying a division is imminent, but I believe that in order to be taken seriously as a military force by our partners and our potential foes we have to be able to show that we have the ability to generate a larger force then we actually use day-to-day and to be able to sustain that force both domestically and on expeditions. All we are proving today is that we have a very limited ability to do that.

So ... Yup. We're in a crisis and refuse to believe that. See for example this piece of Soxism:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-says-leaks-interfernece-2021-election-innacurate-1.6758179

Denial ain't just a river in Africa.

 

[Kirkhill]

I didn't mention the Avenger, MADIS is not Avenger. Entered (limited) production last year.

It has been a long thread.

 

[Rifleman62]

markppcli said:
Maybe centre those complex assets in reserve units closer to bases then? Seems like a decent idea to me.

All PRes vehs are the last priority at Base Maint to look at for what's wrong let alone fix.

Our CBG G4 who dealing with VOR's was posted as OC to Base Maint Land. What changed? Nothing.

 

[markppcli]

There was a RegF kilted Regiment up until 1970. Rumors of a Black Watch Cpl into the 80s was at Gagetown as barrack warden. Never in Gagetown but heard the rumor. A lot of history is lost when Regiments are taken out of service

The Militia history predates most of the Reg Force units, some Militia units now claiming 200 years of service that predates Canada.

Before major cut backs in the 60s and 70s some Militia units paraded huge numbers, the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish Regiment at its final parade in the Renfrew Armouries had over 500 men on parade shoulder to shoulder to shoulder. That was before they got paid well or as often as they do now. ( I forget the exact numbers, but every Company was on parade, from Perth, Pembroke, Renfrew, Carleton Place, Almonte, and other communities in the 2 counties.

Times have changed the make up , the size and the locations of Reserve Regiments, but without the historical background, there would be almost no reserve units.

My pint was that needs change with time and traditions can become an albatross around your neck if they’re in the driving seat.

 

[Kirkhill]

Lt General Joe Paul - Corps Commander.

Surely everything else falls into place after that?

We keep playing around with novelties that mix joint, civil and military functions and obscure the simplicity of the military chain of command.

Maybe we need to reinstitute the civilian District Commissioner who can call out the military when it is needed/requested while letting the military get on with focusing on soldiering.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My pint was that needs change with time and traditions can become an albatross around your neck if they’re in the driving seat.

The PER process enters the chat

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Is someone shooting at you?
Y/N
If No, then no crisis…

Since Canada isn’t currently in a shooting war, I’d suggest it has some time to sort out the situation. Not a lot of time, but adoption of near obsolete systems isn’t a good way forward.

But we are steps away from shooting at targets. Balloons, fighter, bombers are all coming to our borders.

With the supply and purchasing systems so out of touch and then the long wait for the items to be built, tested. Time delays. Etc.

Do you order it after you needed yesterday, or do you get it before you need it so you can at least get out the directions and read up on how to use it?

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Biggest issue with a missile system. Training area and range limits. 1AD had those issues, Petawawa ranges and safety areas were maxed out for any live fires.

AA Gun systems, how big of range do you need to operate in and how much becomes restricted air space?

 

[Kirkhill]

Biggest issue with a missile system. Training area and range limits. 1AD had those issues, Petawawa ranges and safety areas were maxed out for any live fires.

AA Gun systems, how big of range do you need to operate in and how much becomes restricted air space?

Has the situation been mitigated in the last few decades by simulators - both free standing and those systems incorporated into the active weapon system?

 

[KevinB]

Getting shot at isn't the sole determinant of a crisis.

I disagree, simply the potential for a disaster doesn’t mean you are having one. That said, people get insurance for a reason BEFOREHAND.

If you believe that deterrence actually means something - and I very much do - then a period where your deterrence capability is close to zero, also creates a crisis. Something needs to be done about it.

I’d argue it can cause a crisis, but not in of itself is a crisis itself - pedantic perhaps, and in general principle I agree with you.

Where I diverge from much of the discussion is that I think that tinkering with structures (which includes the component parts of that structure) has to come after you've done the critical thinking about what the force is supposed to accomplish.

No argument- but some general conclusions can be made without that.

This is why I keep dwelling on a divisional context for the army, not because our deploying a division is imminent, but I believe that in order to be taken seriously as a military force by our partners and our potential foes we have to be able to show that we have the ability to generate a larger force then we actually use day-to-day and to be able to sustain that force both domestically and on expeditions. All we are proving today is that we have a very limited ability to do that.

So ... Yup. We're in a crisis and refuse to believe that. See for example this piece of Soxism:



Denial ain't just a river in Africa.