C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Cloud Cover]

Some of the Israel systems

https://www.armyrecognition.com/april_2019_global_defense_security_army_news_industry/elbit_systems_contracted_for_stylet_guided_mortar_by_undisclosed_asian_country.html

New SPG for Israel http://ir.elbitsystems.com/node/16041/pdf

Can you imagine if GDLS in London announced that it was selling LAV's to an "undisclosed Asian country."  Heads would explode.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This might be worth it just for the saving in back claims alone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9SQhKFhUfM

 

[a_majoor]

In the interests of going from the sublime to the ridiculous, I present the  "Jobaria" MLRS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=187&v=N4IYBF-0ajo

The Jobaria (monster) is the most powerful 122 mm artillery rocket system ever built. This multiple launch rocket system has been developed in by United Arab Emirates in cooperation with Roketsan of Turkey to meet the UAE requirement. However final assembly of this system takes place in the UAE. The main goal was to put one battery of rocket launchers on one vehicle. This new multiple launch rocket system was first revealed in 2013 during IDEX exhibition held in Abu Dhabi. United Arab Emirates have received an undisclosed number of these artillery systems already.

The Jobaria MLRS consists of Oshkosh Global HET 6x6 heavy equipment transporter, towing a 10-wheel semi-trailer with 4 power-operated rocket launchers. Each launcher has three pods with 20 rockets each. So this artillery rocket system carries a total of 240 122 mm rockets. A single Jobaria system replaces a full battery of rocket launchers mounted on 6 trucks with a crew of 30 men. Rockets have a maximum range of 37 km. A full salvo of the Jobaria covers an area of 4 km².

Rockets are stored and launched from pods for rapid reloading and interchangeability of various calibers. Some sources claim that Jobaria is also capable of launching a total of 240 107 mm rockets, with a maximum range of about 11 km. Alternatively it can launch 16 TR-300 300 mm rockets with a maximum range of up to 100 km.

This artillery system is operated by a crew of three. Crew members are seated inside and operate from protected cab. It's armor provides protection from small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. The cab also has NBC protection system. This artillery system is aimed and launches all it's rockets without crew leaving the vehicle.

 

[AlDazz]

I'm not sure this is the correct way of looking at this project. The the C3 provides a platform for training gun detachments and supporting elements.  The 105mm is a low cost solution to making this possible and keeps the fundamentals of indirect fire in practice in reserve units across Canada.  The RCA is no doubt looking into the C3 replacement project with the aim of fielding a  conventional artillery system.  Now if your looking at bringing back the 1st Canadian Rocket Battery from 1945 this system might be in the running.

 

[Kirkhill]

In the interests of going from the sublime to the ridiculous, I present the  "Jobaria" MLRS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=187&v=N4IYBF-0ajo

And a prime example of how to increase productivity.

Next question.

This is three women driving a battery's worth of firepower.  Is the highest rank Bombardier (Corporal) or Major?

 

[Loachman]

I'm not sure this is the correct way of looking at this project.

No - you're missing the whole point.

Think of all of the PYs that will be saved, that can now be re-distributed to organizations much more important than mere Combat Arms units.

Think of all of those poor, starving headquarters.

 

[FJAG]

No - you're missing the whole point.

Think of all of the PYs that will be saved, that can now be re-distributed to organizations much more important than mere Combat Arms units.

Think of all of those poor, starving headquarters.

:rofl:

 

[daftandbarmy]

And a prime example of how to increase productivity.

Next question.

This is three women driving a battery's worth of firepower.  Is the highest rank Bombardier (Corporal) or Major?

If it was an Air Force artillery battery it would likely be a Squadron Commander

 

[NavyShooter]

Bring back the rank of Corporal-Captain!  (M.A.S.H. reference...)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Wonder if it would fit the LAV? interesting loading system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQczLyXnIbA

 

[MilEME09]

Wonder if it would fit the LAV? interesting loading system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQczLyXnIbA

Possible but without seeing the internals of the weapon and loading mechanism it would be hard to say for certain. New turret would be required and the troop compartment would be converted into ammo storage.

 

[a_majoor]

The loading system seems similar to the USMC's "Dragonfire 2" experiment. The Dragonfire 2 actually was designed to fit inside a LAV chassis (although I suspect it was a modified LAV 25 mortar carrier which usually held an 81mm mortar).

There are plenty of turreted mortars out there already, it would be nice if someone in charge could actually get one...

 

[MilEME09]

Dear DND,

Please this

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2020/03/10/lockheed-sails-through-second-flight-test-of-precision-strike-missile/

Cause why not?

 

[Loachman]

There are plenty of turreted mortars out there already, it would be nice if someone in charge could actually get one...

GD was either building or upgrading one (a LAV-25 variant, if I remember) for a customer who favours tan paint when we did the 4 RCR tour in 2013 or 2014.

 

[Petard]

This?

Excellent system with a dirt simple fire control system, capable of firing Stryx anti-tank mortar bombs, and has all the advantages of a closed system in a CBRN environment
Chance of replacing C3 = zero 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Domestically produced version of this under licence? Would mean jobs. Build 400 plus spare parts based on historical issues by other nations, use 200 at any one time and the rest in storage with them being cycled through to maintain even wear and continuous upgrades. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOd1ZlaBxtM&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR0GKY8TbZ_cNDc9l-eb76pio9OGq6fhlCw5K4qRDwIHaaK7IyHdCJEiiAw

 

[suffolkowner]

finish take on their light artillery situation

https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/03/31/nenonens-heritage-pt-2-the-curious-case-of-the-light-gun/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thanks for that, barring buying ex South Korean M101's i still think the M118/119 is the way to go for the Reserves, it would mean we could shrink the Gun tractors as well, which would solve a lot of logistical problems at Reserve units across the country and manage costs. I would then lease two batteries worth of Paladins from the US to support the tanks, with one battery to deploy and the other training. A 120mm mortar system mounted on LAV's to keep up with the LAV's and each Regular force artillery unit gets a battery of 105mm for training purposes or deployment to FOB's to small to take M777. 

So the school gets m777's, 105mm and 120mm mortars for training

Lets say 1RCHA gets the Paladins and battery of 105 for training

2 RCHA is M777 with a training battery in 105's

5e Régiment d'artillerie légère du Canada gets the 120mm with a training battery in 105's

(the above can be moved around)

Since the M119 uses almost the same FCS as the M777 then we have reduced training time between the 2 towed systems. The 120mm mortars provide close up fire support for the LAV, the Paladins provide it for the tanks. The mix means we can tailor the artillery support for the deployment and even tailor it for the mission. So deploy to Europe = Paladins, deploy to Mali, main FOB gets the M777, large movement get the mounted 120mm and small FOB or helicopter deployments bring the 105mm.

The only thing we need to get into production is the M119 and if we were to do a sizeable order, we might be able to interest another nation as well. If we are doing it domestically, then perhaps split the order into 50 a year for 2-4 years, the C3 can be retired as the new guns come on line. The Paladins are leased which should help our relations and pocketbooks, not to mention avoiding a procurement nightmare, the 120mm would be from the market and in use with NATO forces and the M777's we have.

 

[CBH99]

finish take on their light artillery situation

https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/03/31/nenonens-heritage-pt-2-the-curious-case-of-the-light-gun/

Thank You for posting that - fantastic read.  I actually read most of it word for word, rather than skimming over it.  Very insightful!

It also helped change my thinking.


I think some of us (myself included) tend to think "Why spend our limited money on replacing the C3 with another light gun that won't ever see operational service, and is really just there as a basic trainer for the reserves so they can get on an M777 course?"

But after reading that article, especially about the supply chains & support vehicles all being able to be lighter, less maintenance intensive, more ammo being able to be moved, and that a larger number of rounds will probably be more effective than the size of the rounds - it helped me change my perspective on the light artillery gap.

Maybe there actually is quite a useful role for light artillery after all, and have some available for operations in addition to the M777 would actually help fulfill more capabilities that I hadn't thought of.



Seems they are in a very similar boat to us, and are looking at similar systems from similar sources as us.  Some promising systems out there too, even in the vehicle-based mortar perspective, that seem to need the extra push to get off the ground.  (Aka, interested buyers.)

 

[jeffb]

Thanks for that, barring buying ex South Korean M101's i still think the M118/119 is the way to go for the Reserves, it would mean we could shrink the Gun tractors as well, which would solve a lot of logistical problems at Reserve units across the country and manage costs. I would then lease two batteries worth of Paladins from the US to support the tanks, with one battery to deploy and the other training. A 120mm mortar system mounted on LAV's to keep up with the LAV's and each Regular force artillery unit gets a battery of 105mm for training purposes or deployment to FOB's to small to take M777. 

So the school gets m777's, 105mm and 120mm mortars for training

Lets say 1RCHA gets the Paladins and battery of 105 for training

2 RCHA is M777 with a training battery in 105's

5e Régiment d'artillerie légère du Canada gets the 120mm with a training battery in 105's

(the above can be moved around)

Since the M119 uses almost the same FCS as the M777 then we have reduced training time between the 2 towed systems. The 120mm mortars provide close up fire support for the LAV, the Paladins provide it for the tanks. The mix means we can tailor the artillery support for the deployment and even tailor it for the mission. So deploy to Europe = Paladins, deploy to Mali, main FOB gets the M777, large movement get the mounted 120mm and small FOB or helicopter deployments bring the 105mm.

The only thing we need to get into production is the M119 and if we were to do a sizeable order, we might be able to interest another nation as well. If we are doing it domestically, then perhaps split the order into 50 a year for 2-4 years, the C3 can be retired as the new guns come on line. The Paladins are leased which should help our relations and pocketbooks, not to mention avoiding a procurement nightmare, the 120mm would be from the market and in use with NATO forces and the M777's we have.

PzH2000 would be a good option as well. It already shares many components in common with the Leopard which would make maintenance that much easier.