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TCBF said:
And look how well THAT turned out.
Will this Awards and Decorations Registry also fine owners if they dont lock up theur medals properly, or if they transport them without a movement permit? ;D
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Why would that be cosidered weird?
A
aesop081
Guest
TCBF said:
Oh god...i hope we dont have this dicussion again !!!
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33376/post-250767.html#msg250767
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Understood, Thanks 
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First they came for our guns, attacked the bad ones, restricted some prohibited some, and are trying to have all the rest registerered for their next grab. Then they wanted your handguns, prohibited some, now they want to ban them all.
Now they want your medals, and who knows what is next on the agenda.
Can't wait for my POML (Possession Only Medals License), and the $$$ of that. One billion on the gun registry, 200 million on cancer resaerch, and now how much money will be wasted on this venture if it ever comes to fruition.
That MP has issues, and I have some tissues for his issues.
Shakes head.
JAFSOTEC,
Wes
Now they want your medals, and who knows what is next on the agenda.
Can't wait for my POML (Possession Only Medals License), and the $$$ of that. One billion on the gun registry, 200 million on cancer resaerch, and now how much money will be wasted on this venture if it ever comes to fruition.
That MP has issues, and I have some tissues for his issues.
Shakes head.
JAFSOTEC,
Wes
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I think the whole idea is more about the selling of medals by those who do not have any legal right to them. A thief steals a set of medals and cannot just pawn them, so up on ebay they go. A veteran dies while in a nursing home, but instead of his medals being given to his family, the staff contact a collector. If the veteran or his descendants want to sell them, that is their business but I think anyone profiting off those medals, like from the above examples, should be heavily fined or jailed. So , to me any legislation requiring proof of ownership, or lineage to the medals recipient before selling medals and placing blame on collectors who turn a blind eye when they can't, isn't a bad thing.
As far as Peter Stoffer being for the men and women if the CF and Veterans, he is, he is the ONLY MP that regularly stands up in the house of Commons and demands action on behalf of veterans, from SISIP, to Agent Orange and VIP, so you may not agree with him on his stance on this one issue, but he does have the best interest of all of us who have worn the uniform, past or present.
As far as Peter Stoffer being for the men and women if the CF and Veterans, he is, he is the ONLY MP that regularly stands up in the house of Commons and demands action on behalf of veterans, from SISIP, to Agent Orange and VIP, so you may not agree with him on his stance on this one issue, but he does have the best interest of all of us who have worn the uniform, past or present.
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Bigrex said:
I'm curious, how would you propose the ownership or lineage for the many medals that have legally been in collectors' hands for months/years/decades be established? Why cannot the same rules that deal with the theft and illegal sale of other private property apply to medals as well?
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Bigrex said:
There's looking out for our best interests and just being stupid. To me this falls into the category of a stupid idea, regardless of his best intentions. Its a waste of our tax money for an unnecessary measure, the only result of which would be to make criminals out of legal medal collectors and rive them underground (oh boy, does that line ever sound familiar!). The only one who wins would the bureaucrats when I pay for some twit to be a member of the board of directors for the program, pay some other twit to be a manager of policy for this program, etc, etc,... There are so many reasons against this bill, most of which are self-evident, that its pointless to argue abut it.
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Michael O`Leary said:
Simple really, a grandfather clause, as I'm sure every legit collector has some form of paperwork on current purchases, so if a someone approaches a collector after the bill comes into effect, and they are not the veteran or their family, and that person cannot provide proof of ownership, then no sale and police are notified. And the problem with medals falling under existing laws, is when a veteran passes, their medals are part of their estate, and unless there is family to collect those belonging immediately, a stranger will often take possession of those belonging and sell whatever they can. It isn't stealing, so not illegal, but it is morally wrong, and Stoffer is merely trying to place legality alongside the morality of not selling medals. You can't sell a car, no matter how old or beat up it is without some proof of ownership, so why not provide the same considerations for the medals of our elder soldiers.
Also, anyone trying to sell medals on Ebay is purely looking for a quick buck, and not interested in preserving the memory of the person who earned those medals. It also reminds me of a story I heard last year, of a conman who would go into legions across the country passing himself off as a disabled veteran, just back from Afghanistan, and he wore medals which either stole or purchased off ebay, and the old vets would but him drinks and give him money for food and lodging, he was eventually arrested, but I don't think there are any laws to prevent people from wearing someone elses medals or lying about being a vet, or even a soldier.
I was wondering about statements of service under 419.(c) my Grandfather passed away in the 1970's at that time he left to my dad a number of documents relating to his serivce with the Lincolnshire Regiment of the British Army is it legal for me and my dad to own those? (sorry if this goes of topic but I didn't want to open a new one)CDN Aviator said:
As for the topic at hand there is another Catagory of people who may want to optain medals Those of us who wish to honour member of the family who were fought sometimes the medal may have gone out of the family or gone to another line yet we wish to Honour them. At this time I am trying to track down a 1914 star a British War medal and Victory Medal to honour and have a very real conection to my great uncle.
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Bigrex said:
If someone wants to sell medals on ebay or at a coin show, its his business, shy of being stolen etc. The dealers know there is a good market for medals to serious collectors, who are willing to pay top $$ even though they may have got them for a song.
As for posing, like the guy we heard about was, replica medals has the same results. Many returned vets wear replicas now to protect and preserve their originals. I still wear my originals (as seen in my avatar).
There is a difference beteween collectors, some cut-throat dealers, and posers.
Posers are scum of the earth, so no need to go there.
We really have no control over what a person sells privately with or without good intentions, and the goods are not stolen. We live in a democracy, not the Stalin years.
Don't be hoodwinked by this Stoffer clown.
Yes, there are laws in Canada and other countries to prevent posers from wearing medals which they have not earned.
Here, posers have been caught outright wearing Viet Nam medals, and have been charged in the past, adn publically humiliated with their names and pics in the paper. Yes followed with a court appearance. Our Korea vets are now in their 70s at least, and our WW2 Vets are well into their 80s and beyond, so not many posers there now.
Australia has it the our criminal code, but allows the medals of family who are now gone, to be worn on the right hand side in respect by surviving family, and only on ANZAC Day and 11 Nov. That is another kettle of fish, and the KEY words are 'right hand breast', as we all know medals are worn on the left side. There is never a problem or abuse here with this, as its part of our culture of rememberance here 'down under'
Regards,
Wes
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Bigrex said:
And I suppose you have records of every purchase you’ve ever made? Everything you’ve picked up at a yard sale, collector’s meet, or acquired in a trade? Receipts and records kept forever of every store purchase and online transaction? All perfectly documented by you and the seller to prove when and how it came into your possession? How can you possibly justify the expectation that every “legit collector” would have done this throughout their entire collecting history?
How do you propose compensating collectors for lost value? These medals are also an investment, in some cases quite a considerable investment. One day, if all goes well, I hope to see my collection go to the regimental museum. But, they do have a value as an investment. God willing, I will never face a family emergency of such a magnitude that I may have to consider liquidating any or all of my collection to mitigate the effects.
Bigrex said:
Do you really believe that if someone dies and the family isn’t right there, that some form of “salvage rights” exists for the next passer by? There are very few things that require transferral of registration for purchases and sales. Shall we have a special government office where medal sales would then have to be recorded?
You presume it is “immoral” to sell medals? Why?
Bigrex said:
eBay is just an online marketplace, one that reaches a broader range of possible customers than any other option. Sellers use it because it’s easy, convenient and it works – your presumption that medals plus eBay only equals greed without any of the participants being concerned with the historical value is nonsense. Regardless of the seller’s intention, which you are painting with far too broad a brush, is it not good if the buyer is acquiring the medal because he or she does believe in preserving the memory?
Bigrex said:
This is a red herring. As far as laws about wearing unearned medals, I think you need to research that one a little more.
Controlling medal sales has nothing to do with maintaining and enforcing laws and regulations about the illegal wear of medals. If anything it will make the situation worse, by reducing the awareness and understanding of medals, entitlements and meaning as more and more medals disappear from public view (into a underground economy created by the criminalization of the medal trade or into museums to lie in dusty basements once available display space is filled).
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Well for one thing, any serious collector will have his collection insured, or at least cataloged for insurance purposes, I collect knives and swords and I have pictures and serial numbers of each ( or other identifiable markings), as like you said, they are an investment and people like to protect their investments, so if needed to I could prove that they were my possessions. And selling Medals on Ebay, is disgraceful, IMHO, if you need to or want to sell medals, contact a museum, they will know collectors, or look online, it can't be that hard to find collectors, but by selling them online to an anonymous buyer, you can't say you care about those medals, and I know if someone sold my medals that way, I would be pissed.
The selling of someone else's medal is immoral, it's bad enough to sell something that someone else paid for, but medals have to be earned with the Veterans blood and sweat, and by treating those medals in a disgraceful way is degrading to all Veterans. How would you feel if someone stole your medals and then profited off them by selling them to a collector or online, i have a feeling you would wish the law could do more than just charge him with a misdemeanor crime, or wish there had been a way to prevent the sale, like legislation requiring proof of ownership. As long as things stay the way they are, we will continue to hear stories of medals being stolen, as a way to make a quick buck, but as long as it isn't your medals, you don't care, in fact each of you collectors may have at least one item in your collection that may have been sold under less than legit circumstances, and you would never know, but what would you do if a veteran approached you and said you had purchased his medals that had been stolen or wrongfully sold by a family member. would you return those medals at a loss to you or would you expect the Veteran to pay you.
Either way, I don't think this will come to fruition, as it is a private member motion, and the Tories have proven that they do not honor the will of the house, when it doesn't suit them, as Peter Stoffer's Veterans First motion was passed last November, with every opposition MP voting yes, while every Conservative voted no, but in spite of it passing, the Tories haven't acted on a single element of that motion to better veterans and our survivors lives, so why would they care about our medals, or what happens to them after we die.
As far as laws about impersonating soldiers and veterans, I merely said I didn't think there were any, not stating a fact, just that I haven't heard of any in effect or enforced.
The selling of someone else's medal is immoral, it's bad enough to sell something that someone else paid for, but medals have to be earned with the Veterans blood and sweat, and by treating those medals in a disgraceful way is degrading to all Veterans. How would you feel if someone stole your medals and then profited off them by selling them to a collector or online, i have a feeling you would wish the law could do more than just charge him with a misdemeanor crime, or wish there had been a way to prevent the sale, like legislation requiring proof of ownership. As long as things stay the way they are, we will continue to hear stories of medals being stolen, as a way to make a quick buck, but as long as it isn't your medals, you don't care, in fact each of you collectors may have at least one item in your collection that may have been sold under less than legit circumstances, and you would never know, but what would you do if a veteran approached you and said you had purchased his medals that had been stolen or wrongfully sold by a family member. would you return those medals at a loss to you or would you expect the Veteran to pay you.
Either way, I don't think this will come to fruition, as it is a private member motion, and the Tories have proven that they do not honor the will of the house, when it doesn't suit them, as Peter Stoffer's Veterans First motion was passed last November, with every opposition MP voting yes, while every Conservative voted no, but in spite of it passing, the Tories haven't acted on a single element of that motion to better veterans and our survivors lives, so why would they care about our medals, or what happens to them after we die.
As far as laws about impersonating soldiers and veterans, I merely said I didn't think there were any, not stating a fact, just that I haven't heard of any in effect or enforced.
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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Bigrex said:
Oh c'mon BigRex, what you are saying is akin to claiming writing an e-mail is an immoral way to send someone a message. One should put pen to paper and mail it through the post office.
It is just another method to sell items. You as a collector know full well that one does not keep every single item they sell. If I were to see an item, which is not part of my particular subject, however I find at a good price, I will purchase it. I will then use this item to either barter, or sell, so that I may attain the particular item I want.
You collect knives and swords, which are instruments of death. Sure I see the beauty and craftsmanship of your collection, however they were made for one purpose only; Killing. You don't see the irony of your statement in that the collecting of medals is immoral? But I digress, and only want to use this as a sample (I too love subject of knives and swords, so just playing the devil's advocate
)Now if we use this analogy, what would happen if a MP put forth a member's bill prohibiting the sale of Knives or Swords so that we may stop the killing of someone by stabbing? But you will argue that edged weapons don't kill people do.
Same with our passion; Just because someone deals in stolen good, or impersonates a veteran does not justify nullifying the passion that we have in collecting, trading, or selling medals. What would be next banning the sale of cap badges and uniforms? Articles of war? When does the line get drawn?
Let me reiterate the Governments current policy, thanks to Reccesoldier's post;
Reccesoldier said:
You would rather see this happen? Where is the honour and respect in that?
dileas
tess
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Let me set the record straight, I have no problem with the collectors themselves, as long as they are doing it legitimately, my biggest issue is the people who sell those medals for a quick buck, treating them on equal or less status as trading cards, especially by those who do not have the right to sell the medals. Personally, I want my medals buried with me, they are my last link to my time in the CF. As a person who always knew he would enter the military, to have my career cut short due to injury, my medals are a part of me that is already dead, and they will stay with me when the rest goes.
