Business Class for TD Travel

[Lumber]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but it's been a few years, so maybe some of you have more insight now, but I just want to know "How"?

How does the military keep getting away with violating CFTDTI entitlements? I have a friend going on TD to Asia and it's a 35 hour trip and he's basically been laughed at when he brought up the idea of Business class, despite the fact that the flying time is WELL over 9hrs. Some legs of the journey are so long that a "overnight stay in the middle" is not possible.

I don't think I've ever heard of someone actually getting Business class for TD despite meeting all the requirements for it IAW CFTDTIs.

How has this not been grieved yet?

 

[dimsum]

Cynical answer: Because Business Class takes a huge chunk of the unit TD budget.

I don’t know the policy offhand but is it a “should” or a “shall”? Also, is it a TB-administered rule or a CAF one?

 

[Lumber]

From CFTDTIs:

Also, is it a TB-administered rule or a CAF one?

1.03 Authority - TB​

Section 35(2) of the National Defence Act provides that the Treasury Board (TB) determines and regulates the payment of travel and other expenses of CF members.

1.05 CFTDTI - authority​

In the CFTDTI, immediately following every instruction:

1. made under the authority of the TB, there shall be in parentheses the letter T; and
2. made under the authority of the CDS, there shall be in parentheses the letter C.

I don’t know the policy offhand but is it a “should” or a “shall”?

(Chatper 8 is for International Travel with Overnight Stay)

8.30 Air travel​

(Members) Subject to paragraph 8.20(2) (Selection), a member - who is not a senior officer - is:

1. in respect of a flight or series of flights in which the total travelling time - from takeoff at the first airport to landing at the last airport - is nine or more hours without an overnight stay during those hours, entitled both to travel in business class and to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for that travel;
2. in any other case, entitled both to travel in economy class and to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for that travel.

(T) <---(meaning this section is made under TB authority)


To me, "is entitled to" means "shall".

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but it's been a few years, so maybe some of you have more insight now, but I just want to know "How"?

How does the military keep getting away with violating CFTDTI entitlements? I have a friend going on TD to Asia and it's a 35 hour trip and he's basically been laughed at when he brought up the idea of Business class, despite the fact that the flying time is WELL over 9hrs. Some legs of the journey are so long that a "overnight stay in the middle" is not possible.

I don't think I've ever heard of someone actually getting Business class for TD despite meeting all the requirements for it IAW CFTDTIs.

How has this not been grieved yet?

I didn't know this was a thing... Thank you.

 

[dimsum]

I didn't know this was a thing... Thank you.

Yeah, I only found out a few years ago when I was in a unit that had lots of travel to pre-position folks.

 

[CountDC]

part of it can be found in CFTDI 8.20(2) which is where it says the approving authority selects a mode of transportation and a bunch of considerations. There has also been some emails sent out since the CFTDI was issued and very much in need of updating that basically says no to business class for everyone in the CAF as part of fiscal responsibility to the public. Business Class now requires justification (quoting CFTDI/NJC does not do it) which if anyone can find it please let the rest of us know as I have seen MGen request it and get rejected.

 

[Lumber]

I didn't know this was a thing... Thank you.

Oh ye. I was being flown home from Madeira after doing MRIs aboard STJ and the total travel time was 15 hrs, so I told them they had to either fly me business class, or give me a night off somewhere mid-trip. They were never going to give me business class, and a night off on a 15 hr flight seems silly, but I demanded it, and so I got a half-day and night off in Boston on the way home.

 

[Lumber]

part of it can be found in CFTDI 8.20(2) which is where it says the approving authority selects a mode of transportation and a bunch of considerations. There has also been some emails sent out since the CFTDI was issued and very much in need of updating that basically says no to business class for everyone in the CAF as part of fiscal responsibility to the public. Business Class now requires justification (quoting CFTDI/NJC does not do it) which if anyone can find it please let the rest of us know as I have seen MGen request it and get rejected.

THEN WHY IS IT EVEN IN THE CFTDTIs AS AN "ENTITLEMENT"?!?!?

 

[CountDC]

THEN WHY IS IT EVEN IN THE CFTDTIs AS AN "ENTITLEMENT"?!?!?

that is why I stated " much in need of updating" The CFTDTI does not currently reflect the policies in place and needs to be updated accordingly or TB needs to slap the CAF again for not following their directions.

 

[Halifax Tar]

THEN WHY IS IT EVEN IN THE CFTDTIs AS AN "ENTITLEMENT"?!?!?

It's a head scratcher.

Oh ye. I was being flown home from Madeira after doing MRIs aboard STJ and the total travel time was 15 hrs, so I told them they had to either fly me business class, or give me a night off somewhere mid-trip. They were never going to give me business class, and a night off on a 15 hr flight seems silly, but I demanded it, and so I got a half-day and night off in Boston on the way home.

Good to know, thank you.

 

[Jarnhamar]

THEN WHY IS IT EVEN IN THE CFTDTIs AS AN "ENTITLEMENT"?!?!?

When I pushed a very similar "the CAF shall" + entitlement issue I was cornered and politely asked "Do you think you're fucking smart?".

In most cases it's not worth wipping little dick leaders into a frenzied 'oh ya?!' game of finding ways to screw you over.

 

[QV]

CAF: "We can't figure out why recruitment and retention are way down."

 

[Halifax Tar]

When I pushed a very similar "the CAF shall" + entitlement issue I was cornered and politely asked "Do you think you're fucking smart?".

In most cases it's not worth wipping little dick leaders into a frenzied 'oh ya?!' game of finding ways to screw you over.

RHIP mo fo

 

[Edward Campbell]

Still? FFS this "issue" was settled - in favour of directors making decisions for travel by NDHQ branch and formation (squadron, brigade, wing, etc) for fleet/field units and bases - back in 1990s. Yes, business class travel eats HUGE holes in budgets that have been "scrubbed down" to "low cost carrier" levels by bean counters in January and must, therefore, be "readjusted" (always upwards) in June and again in October but that's life in a system that runs on hopes and dreams rather then experience and data.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I travelled once in Business Class on TD to Australia. I didn’t request it, it was just given to me.

But, that’s almost impossible in the best of times to get it. I truly don’t understand why we can’t abide by policy, as we expect our members to do so.

The letter that was referred to may be a letter by Comd RCAF (circa 2017) that said senior officers (Col +) were not automatically entitled to Business Class for their travel. The current version of the CFTDTIs account for that.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The military is not the only one that gets screwed over this one. My wife regularly has to fly Montreal to Tokyo for her work with the Canadian Space Agency, a 15 hours flight, and she never gets authorized business class.

If the Treasury Board doesn’t want to abide by its own rules, they should change them instead of limiting their use to a few privileged, read ADM’s and above, ones.

 

[AmmoTech90]

When I travelled at lot in DND, 10-16, we could get business class even though there were some severe travel restrictions.
Basically it came down if it was short notice and you did not have time to arrange a rest day or layover. If you could do either it was economy for you.

 

[Navy_Pete]

As an intermediate I've used it as a justification to pay for the preferred seating options with additional leg room and stop overs. Even for shorter flights (2-4+ hours) I've claimed that upgrade on the finalization and it has never gotten denied. When you are built like a praying mantis and made up of mostly limbs the extra legroom is amazing. With how long it takes to get travel approved and the flights booked now though, frequently don't even have an option to select one of those seats as they are pre-booked.

 

[dapaterson]

As an intermediate I've used it as a justification to pay for the preferred seating options with additional leg room and stop overs. Even for shorter flights (2-4+ hours) I've claimed that upgrade on the finalization and it has never gotten denied. When you are built like a praying mantis and made up of mostly limbs the extra legroom is amazing. With how long it takes to get travel approved and the flights booked now though, frequently don't even have an option to select one of those seats as they are pre-booked.

When I was travelling frequently and occasionally taking large(ish) groups with me, I found "There's a seat sale! Approve now and we can save $XXXX!" as an email to the staff supporting the approving authority provided a fine paper trail; paper trails in turn incentivize reticent staff to give approvals so they, in the future, won't be pointed to as obstacles adding delay, cost and no value.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@dapaterson but isn't adding delay and cost with no value to raison d'etre for half of the oversight levels? I haven't gotten a travel request denied yet, but everytime it has to go to the ADM it costs thousands in extra booking fees.