Borden vs St. Jean

[NavComm]

Guess you didn't like me being honest. I know I'm new on this board. But buddy wanted to know if there was a difference. So I pointed it out what noticible differences I have personally seen. Now myself instead of acting like a 2 year old, would concentrate on making myself the best soldier I could be. But that is just me, you can blame the whole world if you want to.

I suppose I should have put the little winky face at the end of my remarks. I do believe I had good training and I don't believe I'm inferior to anyone trained in St. Jean. I also believe that no matter where a person does their training it's what that individual puts into it that counts. I put everything I had into my basic and every job I've done in the navy since.

If you have noticed people coming out of Borden are not as well trained as those from St. Jean, then I guess there are some instructors in Borden that should be taking notice. Personally, I don't want to blame it on the instructors and if you had read my previous posts, you would see that IMO if there are such huge differences, then it's probably more to do with the troops than the instructors.

We had a few thuds on our course, sure. I worked with a few thuds in Esquimalt too. Are they thuds because they did basic training in Borden? I don't think so. I think they are just thuds and it wouldn't matter where they were trained, they just put minimal effort into everything they did.

My platoon commander was RCR and the 2 I/C PPCLI and IMO they were highly motivated and skilled. There are standards set that the instructors have to live with. Some people, no matter how good their instructors are, are always going to shoot for mediocrity. Unfortunately, the standards allow for mediocre people to make it to SQL and NETP and on to trades training. Maybe that's where we should be looking for changes.

just my .02

 

[grayman]

To all those interested, slagging the instructional staff in Borden is a weak BS thing to do.  I'll have you know that I as an instructor in Borden do not slack off or lower my standards for anyone.  Once a Patricia always a Patricia.  Where the problem stems from in my opinion is even though we fall under CFLRS in St Jean our direct chain of command is the Naval Reserve Training Division, who by no fault of their own are'nt exactly the most "army" bunch around.  As it is now everything we instructors need or have to have we beg, borrow or steal, call in favours, you name it, we are charged with instructing new recruits and have little to no support.  When we army types try to instill new things to the training, ways we have tried and tested in units, battleschools etc, 99% of the time we are shot down or told "we dont do it like that in Borden" or the ever famous "we will just Bordenize it to fit our needs".
There are to many dinosaurs in prominent positions of authority that are just there till they die, or they post in, newly retired from the reg force, next day new contract with the reserves, until ......whenever.
NRTD is also constantly cramming naval traditions down everyones throats, I'm all for traditions but when your in a combined evvironment like a recruit school it should be CF traditions not element specific, or at least an equal smattering of army and air traditions as well.
If ST Jean came down here and saw how this place is run they would have a coronary, problem is they have been once for a couple of hours and then gone, if the want a good cross-section of the goings on around here they need to spend more time with the instructors, not the higher ups, see what little we have to work with.
So in retrospect if you think you are frustrated as a student you should be in the instructors shoes, its a totally different headache.

Oh Yeah, as for weapons cadre...................what's that ?  We scrammble on every course to find instructors competant and capable of instructing weapons drills.  Usually what happens is they employ some naval reservists from parts unknown to instruct weapons for the alloted time and then POOF their gone.

So to sum up we try, its getting better we are slowly getting more instructors, more training aids, but the frustration is never ending.
Its my opinion that all recruit schools should be run by infantry or at least cbt arms, thats just me, I'm sure i"ve stepped on some toes during my two cents worth, but now you know, from someone who is here.

 

[steve29]

To all those interested, slagging the instructional staff in Borden is a weak BS thing to do.  I'll have you know that I as an instructor in Borden do not slack off or lower my standards for anyone.  Once a Patricia always a Patricia.  Where the problem stems from in my opinion is even though we fall under CFLRS in St Jean our direct chain of command is the Naval Reserve Training Division, who by no fault of their own aren't exactly the most "army" bunch around.  As it is now everything we instructors need or have to have we beg, borrow or steal, call in favours, you name it, we are charged with instructing new recruits and have little to no support.  When we army types try to instill new things to the training, ways we have tried and tested in units, battleschools etc, 99% of the time we are shot down or told "we dont do it like that in Borden" or the ever famous "we will just Bordenize it to fit our needs".
There are to many dinosaurs in prominent positions of authority that are just there till they die, or they post in, newly retired from the reg force, next day new contract with the reserves, until ......whenever.
NRTD is also constantly cramming naval traditions down everyones throats, I'm all for traditions but when your in a combined environment like a recruit school it should be CF traditions not element specific, or at least an equal smattering of army and air traditions as well.
If ST Jean came down here and saw how this place is run they would have a coronary, problem is they have been once for a couple of hours and then gone, if the want a good cross-section of the goings on around here they need to spend more time with the instructors, not the higher ups, see what little we have to work with.
So in retrospect if you think you are frustrated as a student you should be in the instructors shoes, its a totally different headache.

Oh Yeah, as for weapons cadre...................what's that ?  We scramble on every course to find instructors competant and capable of instructing weapons drills.  Usually what happens is they employ some naval reservists from parts unknown to instruct weapons for the alloted time and then POOF their gone.

So to sum up we try, its getting better we are slowly getting more instructors, more training aids, but the frustration is never ending.
Its my opinion that all recruit schools should be run by infantry or at least cbt arms, thats just me, I'm sure i"ve stepped on some toes during my two cents worth, but now you know, from someone who is here.

I agree with you 100%, and not that it makes any difference, but we do know about the headaches you guys go through. Keep up the hard work fellas, I know it is frustrating

 

[NavComm]

Its my opinion that all recruit schools should be run by infantry or at least cbt arms, thats just me, I'm sure i"ve stepped on some toes during my two cents worth, but now you know, from someone who is here.

+1 the infantry instructors were viewed by the platoon as more effective in every way.

 

[medic269]

This thread had disaster written all over it...

 

[grayman]

I'm back, just one more thing if the CF wants us to produce the same quality recruit as ST Jean, then someone needs to spend some money, lots of money in our direction, and towards other recruit schools throughout Canada.  All recruit schools regardless of location should have exactly the same funding, support, equip, pers, training etc.
As with everything in the military there should be one standard, one standard only, and possibly all schools run by an outside agency within the military, for example a CF recruit standards cell or school, much like the INF, ART, ARMD, ENG schools in Gagetown, they are the end all and be all of everything pertaining to their specific trade.  At the INF school regardless of unit all are trained to the same CF infantry Corps standard.  I"m sure there is a CF recruit standard cell or school somewhere but it needs to be more pro active and start dropping the hammer and investigate why there is a difference between recruits out of St Jean and Borden, like some state there is.
Maybe we should go the way of the Brit army and each unit is responsible for their own training of their troops from day one.  Realistacally it would probably never happen because we are not big enough military , but just food for thought.
CHEERS!

 

[steve29]

Alright my turn....In regards to one place being better than an other, lets see....All material taught in Borden and St Jean same thing regulated by a Standards cell.

Sorry but as for this. No. Troops are showing up from Borden with 6 or 7 troops on the course who have set up an artic tent. I know it is summer time but still part of the SQ package is winter warfare. All the troops that show up from st. jean have already done this. When this happens we teach it as a review. For the Borden guys we start from scratch.  Still confuses me why 6 or 7 of them have done it? Don't get me wrong, I do teach it and enjoy it because it is one of the fun things to watch. I had a group of SQ students who I timed the first time they set up a tent and it was over an hour lol Now I have never had another group like them again from ST jean or Borden.

My point here is, the same things are not being taught. I don't know if it is part of the BMQ package or just something extra the guys from ST jean throw in because of the extra resources.

Oh and for buddies comment on infantry should teach everything. I do not agree with that, however weapons and fieldcraft I do.

A little bit of UFI also at LFAATC where I work now, when an infantry PLQ is ran it is only ran by infantry instructors, no other trades. When any other PLQ is ran it is any trade as instructor. I don't mean anything by this just some UFI.

 

[grayman]

As for certain things being taught or not, that lies totally on the instructional staff itself, I've been teaching for a while here and I know for a fact, we, teach arctic tent within our Platoon, because I'm one of the only people that has ever set one up, and I always teach it.  Certain instructional staff decide certain things are not as important as others, and as a result decide not to teach them, or teach it as quickly as possible and carry on, BS I know, but thats the miserable truth.  I also find some pers are more interested and take their job more seriously than others, this place needs a serious "flushing", some are here punching a clock.  I take it more serious I think only because I know where the troops are going, and I dont want dead weight "polluting" the units.  You've all heard "Who the hell was your instructor in basic?, cause he did'nt have a clue"  I wont let myself be that guy.
So please dont paint us all with the same brush some of us are bustin our ass.
CHEERS!

 

[HiredGoon10]

As for certain things being taught or not, that lies totally on the instructional staff itself, I've been teaching for a while here and I know for a fact, we, teach arctic tent within our Platoon, because I'm one of the only people that has ever set one up, and I always teach it.  Certain instructional staff decide certain things are not as important as others, and as a result decide not to teach them, or teach it as quickly as possible and carry on, BS I know, but thats the miserable truth.  I also find some pers are more interested and take their job more seriously than others, this place needs a serious "flushing", some are here punching a clock.  I take it more serious I think only because I know where the troops are going, and I dont want dead weight "polluting" the units.  You've all heard "Who the hell was your instructor in basic?, cause he did'nt have a clue"  I wont let myself be that guy.
So please dont paint us all with the same brush some of us are bustin our ***.
CHEERS!

Hopefully the majority of my BMQ instructors at Borden will have a similar attitude towards their teaching as you do. Personally I believe students (recruits in this case) absorb more material, more easily, when the instructors know what they're teaching and want to be teaching it. At least I do anyway.

 

[Infanteer]

Interesting discussion.

I'm of the opinion that:

A)  Basic training should be environment specific and split between Army, Navy and Air Force.

B)  The CTC should administer Army basic training.

C)  St Jean is a ridiculous facility for a basic training camp.  CFLRS should be moved to somewhere that can offer a better training environment than apartments, a basement, and a small detached training area.

Just thought I'd throw some gas onto the fire....

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[MORGUE]

I suppose I'll have to stick my head out for someone to plink off and say this:

From what I and my friends on our threes (and other people on their 3's/5's I've talked to personally) seen, can't say I have been really impressed with what I saw the recruits doing in Borden. Seen them way too many times in civvies walking (not marching) around, heading to Canex, the movies etc. The weekend I can understand but the weeknight.. which seemed to be almost every weeknight, we saw lots of them walking around. In uniform, same thing, half (that I saw, again, mind you) never marched, and many talked and moved around way too much while formed up. At Pizza Hut, while we were waiting for our order to come through, we seen some chatting it up with one of their instructors and laughing and what not on a way too casual and friendly basis.

We couldn't help but think that, this would never be tolerated in St. Jean for a minute, and many of the aforementioned people I know who are, at heart, good people, actually developed sort of a resentful attitude towards the recruits for not having to go through the same crap they did.

I think the biggest thing that irked my course personally and a few MP's I knew, was that there were recruits in the H Club walking around thinking they're big shots and more than a few had some attitudes, even with a few MCpl's which I couldn't believe they were getting away with.

I thought I'd toss this out there, because I was one of the people who was a bit put off by how things appeared. Plus, someone had to balance out the topic with a different view.

I did my BMQ in borden (0262) graduated in June this year.  I can tell you we werent allowed out at all during the weeknights, so the pers you seen strolling around were likely not recruits.  My BMQ was taught by well qualified instructors which I learned a great deal from.  Keep in mind that in the summer there are RES BMQ courses running, and they seem to get away with a bit more, shocking eh....

MORGUE

 

[janedoe]

I just have one piece of advice. Borden is unorganized. Not the instructers fault though. Many of them have said they do not get the tools that you get in St.Jean and that yes they have to practically give their first born child to get stuff for their troops. However they are doing their best. My one piece of advice though. Every instructer walking around wants things done a different way. Learn who everyone is and remember how they want things done. Hard at first but makes life easy after. Not necessarily your platoon but all instructors walking around because they watch ALL recruits. Also never lean on things even on a Sunday. A friend of mine was leaning on the fence in the smoking section on a Sunday and got busted by an instructor who was in civvies. Can anyone say push-ups? Oh and NEVER NEVER NEVER call a master seaman a master corporal. Them navy people are 100% proud to be navy. Oh and never call an NCM sir. LOL! Enjoy basic.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

I just have one piece of advice. Borden is unorganized. Not the instructers fault though. Many of them have said they do not get the tools that you get in St.Jean and that yes they have to practically give their first born child to get stuff for their troops. However they are doing their best. My one piece of advice though. Every instructer walking around wants things done a different way. Learn who everyone is and remember how they want things done. Hard at first but makes life easy after. Not necessarily your platoon but all instructors walking around because they watch ALL recruits. Also never lean on things even on a Sunday. A friend of mine was leaning on the fence in the smoking section on a Sunday and got busted by an instructor who was in civvies. Can anyone say push-ups? Oh and NEVER NEVER NEVER call a master seaman a master corporal. Them navy people are 100% proud to be navy. Oh and never call an NCM sir. LOL! Enjoy basic.

Are or were you an instructor in Borden? I have no troubles getting anything here(Borden) at supply. If you are nice to the storesmen(women) working there, they are nice back.

 

[735_winnipeg]

I'm currently in Borden at the moment, waiting for Reg F Sig Op 3s in Nov, and I'm placed with Alpha Company of PRETC.  It's a mixed of franco and anglo-phones and I can tell you it's a big bag of crap.  The whole company disintegrates into chaos when there's no staff especially the francophones, I got nothing against Quebecers except the whole trying to leave the country thing but when no staff is around they start doing their own things regardless of what was ordered to them.  From my point of view, they've been here too long or think that the anglophone staff are a joke to them.  That's just my 2 cents.

 

[mml]

Hey all,

When I called  the recruiting center here the other day and advised them I was interested in  going  into the ROTP and taking my nursing at a  CF civilian University. He said during the summer months I would go to St Jean,Quebec  to learn more french and not Borden.....But I remember someone on the forms saying it was Borden that they went to ...What is the difference is the two places? How do they  choose where or which one you go to and why/ what is the criteria?


Thanks,

Melanie

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Well 735_winnipeg:
I was told i made a racist comment on a post the other day for no reason...and no one is saying anything about your post...well im going to...if this board wont tolerate "racism" against anglos, then i think it shouldn't tolerate it against franco's either.

And for your information, not everyone who speaks french is from Quebec, there are french speaking people in Manitoba, Ontario, the Maritimes, all over...so before you just start bad mouthing french people and just saying well they are just dumb Quebecers who don't give 2 sh!ts about there anglo instructors...stop and think...A LOT.

Contrary to popular belief not all french people are bad and think of english people as scum...might be hard to believe but its true

i think your comment should be deleted.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

[a] That was from last August.
[b} He didn't insult all Franco's, just the ones he was with.........I wasn't there, were you?

Contrary to popular belief not all french people are bad and think of english people as scum...might be hard to believe but its true

"Contrary to popular belief"???............gee thanks for that earth-shattering news, I will be sure to pass that on to my French wife and kids.

My patience wears a little thinner........

 

[Armynewsguy]

Well since the thread has been reopened anyway;

Here are links to print and video stories that we have done on PRETC and also on the NAVRES teaching recruits in Borden.

print story  pretc    http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1666
video story  pretc    http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1809

video story recruit trg Borden  http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1746
print story  recruit trg Borden  http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1657

Armynewsguy

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

To actually answer MML's question....

My SEM (Subsidized Education Manager) in Borden told me that they are looking at moving ALL officer basic training to Borden in the near future. 

In military terms "near future" could mean as early as Sept to never. 

For what it's worth, whether you do your training in St. Jean (which is where I did mine), or at Borden won't make a differene.  The standard and tasks will still be the same. 

 

[Dog]

Okay, well seeing as I'm now qualified to have an opinion I'm gonna chime in;
(I started this thread aeons ago, it seems) I noticed one major difference between the recruits from St. Jean, and the recruits from Borden when I got to Meaford. Our towels were different colour, our ID cards were different (Borden got Temporary cards, while St.Jean got the real deal), and Borden recruits didn't have any other issued identifiers (dogtags, nametags...) while the St. Jean recruits did. Other than that, there was no difference.

There you go, the major differences, and they weren't really major, at all.