Boot, General Purpose (Mk III acting/interim replacement)

[OldSolduer]

If you will indulge me for a moment, I' ve not had a very good week. Excuse me if I seem abrupt and rude. :rage:

I get rather worked up when Snr NCO's who should be using their heads for something other than a place to put their berets.
Loyalty in the Army works both ways. Up and down. You owe to your troops to look after them, physically and mentally. That is what we get paid for.
We, as Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers owe it to our officers to advise them of issues that affect the troops, like the proper sizing and maintenance of footwear.

Thank you!

 

[reccecrewman]

The reason how his size 16 feet fit into the 14's was simple..... he was a new recruit in the training system and knew squat about squat. He was told those were the biggest they had and he WOULD wear them.... so... he jammed his feet in them day after day for months with his toes curled under his feet and "soldiered on".... albeit in a painful fashion....

Soon enough, these old crusty dinosaurs should be out the door..... Off topic, speaking on a similar topic of "wear this, don't wear that"...... I remember reading a book on the Pats and it recounted a tale of a gas attack.... the troops donned their respirators only to have an officer scream at them to "Take those damned masks off, you can't see the Germans attacking with them on"..... end result.... 17 severe gas casualties with 3 of them being treated for decades after the war ended.... *sigh*

 

[OldSolduer]

Yes one day those dinosaurs will be out the door, but not before they have trained a new generation of dinosaurs....who are more concerned with uniformity (albeit that is important on DEU pdes) and how you look and are you wearing issued kit vice performance where it counts.
Once again, its the job of the Sect Comd and his 2I/C to ensure the troops are doing the 4 Ps' - in the Proper Place, Properly Dressed, Prepared to do whatever it is they are tasked with, and at the Proper Time.
This includes the footwear issue.

Sorry if I'm telling you how to suck eggs.... :blotto:

 

[Kat Stevens]

Can an RSM override a medical chit? Am not doubting that is what happened Bzzliteyr am just curious if an RSM even an Area RSM can over rule a medical decision made by the MO.

Of course he can.  Everyone knows that all army NCOs get a medical degree on their 6As.  "There's nothing wrong with you, private, walk it off and catch up with the group."

 

[armyvern]

The reason how his size 16 feet fit into the 14's was simple..... he was a new recruit in the training system and knew squat about squat. He was told those were the biggest they had and he WOULD wear them.... so... he jammed his feet in them day after day for months with his toes curled under his feet and "soldiered on".... albeit in a painful fashion....

Hmmm, 2003?? Here eh? Funny, I was the Sgt at Clothing Stores (and that IS the highest ranking soldier in that section in this location) here then and:

1) I've never in my entire life said anything of the sort above to anyone;
2) I'd have sent him down to purchase boots (SIZE is a SUPPLY resp - NOT a Medical resp, thus NO CHIT was required) just like I did for the others; and
3) I'd even have molded his feet to have customs made for his parade boots etc.

Or can I presume that you're actually talking about BMQ/BOTC in Saint Jean circa that time period? Because I've seen them come out of Saint jean like that before, but we've sent them right down to purchase boots that fit once they hit here.

PS: I too may be considered a "dinosaur" by some, I had 20 in last month ... heeee haw.

 

[chris_log]

If you will indulge me for a moment, I' ve not had a very good week. Excuse me if I seem abrupt and rude. :rage:

I get rather worked up when Snr NCO's who should be using their heads for something other than a place to put their berets.
Loyalty in the Army works both ways. Up and down. You owe to your troops to look after them, physically and mentally. That is what we get paid for.
We, as Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers owe it to our officers to advise them of issues that affect the troops, like the proper sizing and maintenance of footwear.

Thank you!

That's why my chit is in my wallet whenever I wear my uniform, in case I meet a dinosaur (although believe it or not, didn't have a single problem in Borden last summer wearing Magnums).

You can't be afraid to tell someone to bugger off, you just need to learn to do it properly (as I am slowly learning how to do).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't have a chit in my wallet, I have never had one.  I've worn my boots all over Halifax, Gagetown, St-Jean, Lounge-Pointe, Shearwater...and have never been asked to produce a chit.  Nor would I be able to if asked, because CF HS C (A) never provided me one.  However, my Clothing Docs are annotated with whatever they need to be for me to see the Special Footwear section at FLOG, and my Med File would have the proper paperwork in it from the Foot Clinic in Halifax that I was told to report to following my Part II.

However, I am not likely to haul my Magnums off my feet "when ordered" because I am not carrying this chit. 

I have really never understood this obsession with the 'cookie cutter' look other than on parade, inspections on course, etc.  Looking the same as my superiors/peers/subordinates never had a single thing to do with how good I was, or wasn't, at what I was doing. 

*shrugs*

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Okay, from the "horses mouth".

I questioned the Brigade RSM about the boot policy and he showed me what came down the pipes from LFQA.

It is a paper titled "Bottes de combat et autres" and I will translate it to the best of my ability:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It has NOW been prohibited by Ottawa (DSCO 2-5-3 Clothing policy and procedures) to permit members to wear boots other than those issued by the QM, even if the cost was absorbed by the member.

It is now equally prohibited to replace a made to measure orthopedic boot with the purchase of a civilian style (Magnum, Danners, etc) Ref 4090-20 MSI 7000-011.

In resumé:

NO prescriptions should be made for magnum style boots, etc.

a MO can:

    1. evaluate a food problem
    2. offer a treatment
    3. refer to a physiotherapist for treatments
    4. refer you to an orthopedist to be evaluated for "made to measure" boots (no magnums, nor danners, etc.) only if you have a foot or ankle that is deformed due to sickness or injury.

Patients that find themselves uncomfortable in their boots or have feet too long, too wide, too skinny, too high should address the QM.  It is an adjustment issue and not a medical problem due to injury or disease.

For members who have already received in the past a medical chit authorizing them to wear magnum style boots at their expense or by military expense, this medical chit is REVOKED.

1. you need to address you CoC to receive authorization to wear them
2. you need to wear regular military boots
3. reconsult your omnipractician if this boot was issued as a replacement for a "made to measure" boot due to a DEFORMATION.
4. revisit your doctor if this boot was prescribed to increase shock absorption (vibram soled) related to a medical problem.

I have tried for the past 6 years to have other style boots accepted by the CF or to at least allow soldiers to purchase their own boots but this was REFUSED by Ottawa recently.  We now have to follow the rules in place.

If you feel that the boots you have been issued are non satisfactory, fill out a "rapport d'etat non satisfaisant" and pass it up your chain of command or QM.

Chief MO, Montreal Garrison.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there you have it.  I guess it wasn't the RSM who "over rode" an MOs decision but an order from Ottawa that should be applied Forces wide.  There is another page with an email between RSMs but I did not copy that one.

 

[chris_log]

I don't have a chit in my wallet, I have never had one.  I've worn my boots all over Halifax, Gagetown, St-Jean, Lounge-Pointe, Shearwater...and have never been asked to produce a chit.  Nor would I be able to if asked, because CF HS C (A) never provided me one.  However, my Clothing Docs are annotated with whatever they need to be for me to see the Special Footwear section at FLOG, and my Med File would have the proper paperwork in it from the Foot Clinic in Halifax that I was told to report to following my Part II.

However, I am not likely to haul my Magnums off my feet "when ordered" because I am not carrying this chit. 

I have really never understood this obsession with the 'cookie cutter' look other than on parade, inspections on course, etc.  Looking the same as my superiors/peers/subordinates never had a single thing to do with how good I was, or wasn't, at what I was doing. 

*shrugs*

I got an orthotics chit, then stores bought me boots without a 'boot chit' since the orthotics didn't fit in the issued boots. However, as a  CYA thing I went back to the MIR and the doc gave me a 'member is entitled to wear specialized footwear to accomodate orthotic inserts' .

When all you have on your chest is a spaghetti strap, it makes life easier to have a nice official document you can present to someone if they decide to hassle you.

 

[chrisf]

Congratulations Ottawa!

Having the squadron spend entire training days sitting down and filling out UCRs is now a justifiable use of our time!

 

[helpup]

This thread is a fun read.  I personally cant stand the CWB, it does not fit my feet properly and tends to tear them to ratsh%*t if I dont wear the thick wool socks over the green. I am also not a fan of gortex boots.  My own experience with them is once the lether is wet the gortex will not work. Your feet get wet.  Step in a puddle over the tops of the boots, your feet get wet and stay wet. Gortex boots also take alot longer to dry out. So your feet are wet longer.  With the Gortex socks though never a problem, your protected from higher water levels. and if you do get the insides soaked take them off shake out gortex socks put on a new pair of socks and your feet are GTG.
      I am also a person who didnt mind the Mark III hockey puck soles or not.  A vibram sole on it though did help alot!  I am currently awaiting my Mark IV's and will have to experience them before I comment.  Currently I do wear Rocky's ( insulated no gortex ) and find them comfortable although they tend to chew through boot laces unless you fix the eyelet in the instep.  After 3 years they are starting to split at the heel ( sole from boot )
      I dont have a big issue with troops wearing thier own boots ( I am a cheap one and want the army to provide my working footwear) But I do take issue with Young-uns who base wearing a boot on LCF or it felt great in garrison ( dry ) I have watched too many get chewed up feet or rolled ankles due to not choosing the right boot based on experience. I get the uniformity issue, and I get the my feet need this issue ( I mentioned I have Rockie's ) I personally dont think the wear what you want program is a solution, and I also know you must wear this is not a option either ( especially with the types of boots we have now or are wearing now) but there must be a happy medium.  I dont have the answer outside of following and enforcing what is directed to me ( and pointing out to the troops what thier rights are if I think higher is being a tad "high")

As for care of the boots, This Dinosaur started in the days of hot spooning your toes to allow that parade look shine.  Now I keep them only blackend with the issued paste.  If I don't have that then sure I use Kiwi ( hate parade gloss as it doesnt shine as well for me ) I never worry about ruining a boot with Kiwi as by day two in the Ex I have no polish left on the boot, and since I never had a problem with the oils penitrating to my gortex socks I dont worry about it.  Even if my boots were gortex I would still wear the socks and I dont turn in boots that would be worn by anyone else.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

I had originally gotten Matterhorns issued to me in 2000, then grew out of them somehow.  I have had orthodics issued at different times over the years as well.  I posess no more MkIIIs as I turned them in to clothing in Gagetown when i got issued my Magnums a couple of years back.

How did I get Magnums?  The doc knew I couldn't get them for the reasons in the letter above, but seeing as I have very sweaty feet, "breathable boots" (read: fungus = disease) were requested through clothing at Gagetown and a local purchase was made.  Magnums fit the bill.  My feet still look like hamburger most of the time but I think that is in part due to the fact that I wear the boots, GP now for my fallen arches and I live with the nastiness that is my feet without pain.

 

[PMedMoe]

I think the whole issue about the Magnum (brand name) boots was that they didn't offer enough ankle support.  I have a pair and I wouldn't recommend doing a 13 km in them (I speak from experience) however, for everyday use?  Sure.  I know in Kingston they weren't issuing Magnums anymore (regardless of the reason for LPO boots) but since I have a pair, purchased by the military, that are still in great condition, I wear them.

On a side note, the message out of Ottawa is sort of funny considering half the people here don't dress properly anyway......

 

[OldSolduer]

On a side note, the message out of Ottawa is sort of funny considering half the people here don't dress properly anyway......

Nor have some of them been to the field in quite a while.

 

[PMedMoe]

Nor have some of them been to the field in quite a while.

Please!  Try NEVER for some of them.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Maybe the folks making these decisions should ante up, and go do some time in the sandbox, Gagetown, a BTE, etc wearing the kit they are directing be worn, under the same conditions as the troops who are on the receiving end of these directions...just a thought.

 

[PMedMoe]

Maybe the folks making these decisions should ante up, and go do some time in the sandbox, Gagetown, a BTE, etc wearing the kit they are directing be worn, under the same conditions as the troops who are on the receiving end of these directions...just a thought.

I've always said that and not just on the personal kit side, either.  I remember working in Bde Pharmacy when we got the new (at the time) Combi-Tubes (intubation tubes).  They were at least half a foot too long (and you can't fold them) for the pannier Ottawa directed them to go in.  I was wondering if the people making the directive had ever seen a pannier.....

......but I digress.

 

[OldSolduer]

I've always said that and not just on the personal kit side, either.  I remember working in Bde Pharmacy when we got the new (at the time) Combi-Tubes (intubation tubes).  They were at least half a foot too long (and you can't fold them) for the pannier Ottawa directed them to go in.  I was wondering if the people making the directive had ever seen a pannier.....

Uh,,,sorry.,...simple infantry guy here with a Ralph Wiggums question: What's a pannier?

I think it behooves the WOs and Snr NCO's on this forum to inform the the chain of command when required on this issue of boots etc.

 

[Harris]

Uh,,,sorry.,...simple infantry guy here with a Ralph Wiggums question: What's a pannier?

That's easy.  It a noodle that tastes good with a cream sauce.  ;-)  Did I mention I'm in the Infantry too?

 

[OldSolduer]

That's easy.  It a noodle that tastes good with a cream sauce.  ;-)  Did I mention I'm in the Infantry too?

No but you may be a complicated infantry guy while I am a simple one. ;D