BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

[Jarnhamar]

  I hope you were not one previously complaining of the suspect nature of the statistics used to make the new policy.  At best, there is also not yet the data to statistically assess this impact.  Anecdotally, this may be the case.  However, all the other uncontrolled variables all ready identified continue to exist and impact on the courses beyond BMQ ... including the nagging fact that the numbers are boarder-line statistically significant and the individuals were a sample biased full of questionable performers

Indeed I was.  I am paraphrasing a conversation I had with a (no non-sense no bullshit) instructor who was present during all of this.

The highlights I took from that conversation were;

The "high" 66% figure given ended up being an increase of 2 or 3 people.

The test wasn't standard. The platoon allowed to keep their electronics were the ones already in the system for a long time. In some cases in PAT platoon for up to a year (or 2?) . They were both already used to having all their toys and in the system for the long haul.  They're making easy money.

The group who had their toys taken away were fresh new recruits.  It's not to say that having their toys taken away made them quit. I'm willing to bet if you switched that and took the toys away from the 2 year private recruits you would have a heck of a lot more drama.
If the test is to be fair take 2 identical platoons. One has their toys, one doesn't. Then check the results.

Regarding the stats, an officer (as the story goes) took the numbers across a broader spectrum, crunched them, and discovered that while "more" recruits were staying in basic and not VRing, the numbers of  new troops who were kicked off their trades course or kicked out of the CF for administrative/disciplinary issues ALSO increased.

End of the day all of this and no change in numbers.

This of course is just second hand.


I'd be interested in hearing the results of the US's project on this and if they found overall it had positive or negative results.

 

[Stoker]

Throughout this thread I have repeatedly seen senior members complaining about the product that is coming from the recruit school and how easy the kids today have it.  Has anyone actually staffed this up higher? service paper about their concerns?

 

[aesop081]

  Has anyone actually staffed this up higher? service paper about their concerns?

I'll put in on my pile of things to do, after i sort out the problems i already have.

 

[NavalMoose]

I have been following this thread for(ever)weeks now and I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Part of basic training is to push people and let them deal with adversity and exhaustion and BS to see how they handle it.  Hopefully they realize that it takes a team effort to succeed and maybe even develop a little "us" vs "them" "don't let the bastards get you down" attitude.  I know times are different, I have grown up kids, but if you can't handle a few weeks of not having your toys instantly available then what are you going to do when deployed? If there is an emergency during training, you will always be allowed to contact who you need to and to deal with it as necessary. If you are supposedly committing years of your life to an organization, then shut up and follow the rules and think about someone or something other than yourself. You are not there to play and update Facebook, you are there to learn how to act as a team and push yourself and others and ultimately how to kill for your country if called upon....serious business isn't it?

 

[krustyrl]

Best post on this thread so far....IMHO.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

oye.. we still talking about this?

:facepalm:

 

[GAP]

oye.. we still talking about this?

:facepalm:

Think Energizer Bunny.............

 

[armyvern]

Throughout this thread I have repeatedly seen senior members complaining about the product that is coming from the recruit school and how easy the kids today have it.  Has anyone actually staffed this up higher? service paper about their concerns?

LMAO; if I weren't just gettinbg in from leveeeing ... I'd respind with something witty. Not tonight. 

 

[brihard]

LMAO; if I weren't just gettinbg in from leveeeing ... I'd respind with something witty. Not tonight. 

Good levee?  ;D

 

[armyvern]

How much precious experience do you have instructing in a setting where PEDs are allowed? A lot of what you're stating is just conjecture and personal opinion, not experience. And a lot of it might just be fear of the unknown. Can you tell us how this has affected the courses you teach?

Progress comes in many ways, shapes, and forms. And thank God, because otherwise we'd be still standing in open fields in nice pretty lines trading shots at each other.

You should have heard the moaning coming from the young troops when our morale wi-fi was terminated in Afghanistan at the end of July. You'd have swore to Gawd that the world was coming to an end.  We have a job to get done on a tight timeling in this WAR ZONE --- you should have higher priorities than this.

So for me, in the real world "experience" of the Canadian Forces - the answer is lots.


I  care about training because after that comes the real world and that is what BMQs and BOTPs are supposed to prepare them for.

 

[Stoker]

LMAO; if I weren't just gettinbg in from leveeeing ... I'd respind with something witty. Not tonight. 

Was just asking a question Vern, I wasn't tying to get a "witty" reply. In my neck of the woods if we have a policy problem that we strongly disagree with or have concerns then we try and get it changed. Sometimes it actually works.

 

[aesop081]

Was just asking a question Vern, I wasn't tying to get a "witty" reply. In my neck of the woods if we have a policy problem that we strongly disagree with or have concerns then we try and get it changed. Sometimes it actually works.

For the record, i agree with you, sometimes it does work. First, i have to deal with the problems that have made beyond BMQ already.

 

[armyvern]

Was just asking a question Vern, I wasn't tying to get a "witty" reply. In my neck of the woods if we have a policy problem that we strongly disagree with or have concerns then we try and get it changed. Sometimes it actually works.

No, it was me. I wanted to post something "witty" such as Cdn Aviator did about "too much work to do sorting out problems" ... but that wouldn't work for me because I have another month off yet so I can't post an answer ubntil tomoorow. It'll prbably read something like, "I can't right now, no DIN access."  ;D

 

[Stoker]

For the record, i agree with you, sometimes it does work. First, i have to deal with the problems that have made beyond BMQ already.

I hear you, some days the admin problems I have to deal with takes up a good chunk of my time. I think sometimes the old days of Cornwallis should be brought back.

 

[McG]

Indeed I was [one previously complaining of the suspect nature of the statistics used to make the new policy].  I am paraphrasing a conversation I had with a (no non-sense no bullshit) instructor who was present during all of this.  ...

...while "more" recruits were staying in basic and not VRing, the numbers of  new troops who were kicked off their trades course or kicked out of the CF for administrative/disciplinary issues ALSO increased.

End of the day all of this and no change in numbers.

I have to admit some difficulty with your presenting almost as fact that at the "end of the day all of this and no change in numbers."  When it comes to the premise that you oppose, group x was not a statistically significant reference for a number of factors including size, composition (bias), and lack of steady-state reference.  Yet, none of that matters when an anecdotal observation of that same group suggests a conclusion that you like: no greater aggregate success rate due to higher releases between BMQ and operational functioning point (OFP - it is the point where a mbr is qualified in occupation).

Your friend the no-nonsense, no-bullshit instructor who was present during all of this, where did he gain visibility on all of these recent BMQ graduates after they progressed on through other training establishments?  Given the very recent announcement of this new PED policy, there are only four completed BMQ courses (the four trial courses) out there that have followed this process.  That means any statistics would have to be based on tracking individuals from the pilot courses through the rest of their training.  I can assure you, there is no mechanism where other training establishments report back to CFLRS on the success rates by BMQ course as individuals progress through further levels of training.  Also, based on the time it takes to train many occupations and the time it takes to complete 5f & 5d releases - many to most of the statistically insignificant sample group would still be in training systems (so any conclusion would be premature).

As the crux of your argument is that statistically insignificant numbers relayed second-hand in conversation prove there is no change on the training system's out-put, I do wonder if this is not the telephone game distorting somebody's speculation on the future as though it were observation on the past.  From my little corner of the world, the conduct of post-BMQ PATs has been better these past six months than it had been in the preceding three years ... but that is anecdote and not something that could be extrapolated across the CF. 



In any case, my point is not to say that free use of smartphones & PEDs is a good thing; it is to say that I don't believe there are any numbers that exist at this time to prove the wantonness of free use of smartphones & PEDs (and we certainly should not try to make that argument with numbers if we are also arguing that our reference group is not a valid statistical reference while it also points to other conclusions that we don't agree with). 

If the instructors that were on the ground want to suggest that the graduates of the trial courses did not meet the necessary standard of indoctrination to military culture, then that would be fair comment.  But, we now come back to my previous questions: what is the military indoctrination policy/plan at CFLRS?  What is the "product" of that military indoctrination programme? 

 

[jasonf6]

I hear you, some days the admin problems I have to deal with takes up a good chunk of my time. I think sometimes the old days of Cornwallis should be brought back.

Man, if they brought back the old days of Cornwallis the princesses of today wouldn't make it past week one.  I'm not expert but I made it to week four before trying to VR but it was denied because the course WO knew my father (he ran the base kitchen).  So, they re-coursed me to a platoon where I used what I learned the first time and was doing quite well.  They still made us crawl around on the grass mooing like cows while picking weeds but I just rolled with it.  It would take pages to list all the things that they can no longer do in the name of "human rights" though.

You were lucky to see the Canex by week 4 (cept from the other side of the fence) but in St. Jean you see it damn near every day.  The difference between Cornwallis and St. Jean is like night and day.  Bash me all you want but I believe that at least half of the recruits sent to St. Jean today wouldn't make it past week four in Cornwallis.

 

[aesop081]

If Cornwallis still existed, the recruits coming out would be the same as out of St-jean now.

 

[Stoker]

Man, if they brought back the old days of Cornwallis the princesses of today wouldn't make it past week one.  I'm not expert but I made it to week four before trying to VR but it was denied because the course WO knew my father (he ran the base kitchen).  So, they re-coursed me to a platoon where I used what I learned the first time and was doing quite well.  They still made us crawl around on the grass mooing like cows while picking weeds but I just rolled with it.  It would take pages to list all the things that they can no longer do in the name of "human rights" though.

You were lucky to see the Canex by week 4 (cept from the other side of the fence) but in St. Jean you see it damn near every day.  The difference between Cornwallis and St. Jean is like night and day.  Bash me all you want but I believe that at least half of the recruits sent to St. Jean today wouldn't make it past week four in Cornwallis.

Unfortunately you're probably right, but you'll never see that sort of thing again in Canada. It went from a gradual creep to what we have today.
Even the reserves (naval) who went from unit training to a equivalent is now most likely going back to the units again, which will downgrade the product produced at the end of the day in my opinion.

 

[Stoker]

If Cornwallis still existed, the recruits coming out would be the same as out of St-jean now.

That's true but some would like a return of the hard, no BS type of training that Cornwallis once had.

 

[aesop081]

That true but some would like a return of the hard, no BS type of training that Cornwallis once had.

"once had"

If it were still open, it would suffer from the same issues.