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Better system instead of Cl A pay sheets

Konrad Rosenkranz said:
Since my initial post I have been working (on and off) on a stand-alone system that works on biometrics for identification. The programming is web-based (.Net) on an SQL database. It is extremely simple and the intent is to have all pers fingerprint into the system which would then take them into a screen very similar to what a paysheet looks like. Pers select the day, activity, start and end time and click OK. At the end of the day I get a print out sorted by FIN CODE and I sign the last sheet certifying the attendance for the pay office. So we still have paper but now I don't have to worry about who showed up, under what activity, when and why, having in average about 50 pay sheets every couple weeks and sorting through all of the paperwork.

Any ideas if this would work out or does any one see any forecoming issues?

Warning! NAVRES went this route a few years ago and it was, to put it bluntly, a complete disaster. The biometric scanners were in theory interlinked with RPSR - users scanned in and then entered their SN as a sort of password. The system was very finicky and prone to inexplicably not processing pay. Only a very few people in teh formation knew how to finesse it to work and we went back to pay sheets after a year or two.

Also, the biometric scan didn't end up being particularly secure - within a unit of 120 people, any given person could probably scan in as 15 others, if you had their SN. Not less secure than a pay sheet with signatures that can be forged, but not more secure and definitely a lot more expensive and difficult to work with.
 
Konrad Rosenkranz said:
This is definitely a low priority topic but none the less I am curious if anyone has given any thought to implementing a better system to Cl A pay than signing sheets. I ask as the Adjt of my unit and having to sign all those pay sheets constantly, tracking down fin codes and in some instances also ensuring that pers do not exceed their 16 days per month.

As I understand, pay sheets get archived for quite some time - 7 years I've been told. That makes A LOT of archiving I think - but necessary I would think in order to go back for pay discrepancies/questions/etc.

So does any one have any ideas what could replace a pay sheet? Obiously it would need to meet all the requirements of a pay sheet i.e. date worked, half or full day, timings, activity, fin code assignment and pers that worked that day.

What I kinda envisioned was having sort of a kiosk where the member can login by whatever method and be provided a few options that would create, at the end, an electronic pay sheet that can be then submitted to the pay office and archived electronically. Now, since people line up any way to sign one pay sheet, lining up for the kisok would not be any different except it would be faster for the member, more accurate and simpler to file.

So, am I nuts or other Adjt/pay offices think it would be a good idea to revamp the current Cl A pay sheet tree-killing system?

Most Reserve Units are now using Monitor MASS , check it out
 
Help Desk said:
Most Reserve Units are now using Monitor MASS , check it out

Monitor MASS does not replace paysheets.  There may be functions to generate them, but the manual records still have to be maintained.
 
Staff Weenie said:
Sounded like a great idea, but I gather there were technical difficulties that weren't easily solved, and there was thought to be too much potential for fraud....getting your friend to swipe the card for you.

Fortunately, we use the extremely secure, virtually infallible system tossing a piece of paper on a table and scribbling initials on it.

In all seriousness, with the military ID, 404s, smart card, and the dozen or so other cards to be carried around in the wallet, why not simplify everything... a combined ID/404 (only stamp the "license" portion on to the card after the member is licensed to drive, do the same as provincial liscences otherwise and stamp it "this is not a lisence"). Add a magnetic strip containing the info stamped on the card, and a smart card chip for prot B encryption, activated/deactivated by the local IS folks as needed.

Simple to make a swipe card station, or use existing smart card readers to implement a card system.
 
They have a swipe card and can tell how often you've been. Only concern is there is no verification that it's actually you that swiped the card.
 
Another scenario pay sheet versus swipe card:

My signature changes monthly, that would still be difficult to verify if it's actually me signing in regardless of the method.

What then?
 
RedcapCrusader said:
Another scenario pay sheet versus swipe card:

My signature changes monthly, that would still be difficult to verify if it's actually me signing in regardless of the method.

What then?

That's easy....no pay until you pass Penmanship 101.
 
RedcapCrusader said:
Another scenario pay sheet versus swipe card:

My signature changes monthly, that would still be difficult to verify if it's actually me signing in regardless of the method.

What then?

I'm just assuming that you haven't (yet) had to verify your ID via signature, say at a bank or something....
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
That's easy....no pay until you pass Penmanship 101.

Then Medical and Pharmacy officers would never get paid!
 
I can do a a reasonably good forgery of the signature and initials of at least a half dozen members in our unit. There's a number of us who have virtually identical scribbles despite having vastly different names.

Pay sheets aren't any more verifiable than a swipe card.

There's simple solutions to everything... add a webcam to the swipe card reader, take and keep on file a snap shot the user each time a card is swiped, like an ATM does.

Swipe suddenly become more verifiable than a pay sheet.

Downside, are we going to drag a swipe terminal into the field? We usually have a few members who meet us at the training area for exercises, as they live across the road from the training area, but an hour or so drive from the base. What happens when we've got small numbers of pers from multiple units working together? Do we get multiple terminals?

It's no different than credit card payment... any place that provides you with a service or a product that you use BEFORE payment will have on hand the old "chk-chk" carbon paper credit card machines, just in case the system goes need... as long as we keep the ability to use a paper backup, it would be fine.
 
Is this a 'solution' in search of a non-existent problem? 

I mean, the question was posed 13 1/2 years ago  (and was only resuscitated by 'Monitor MASS does everything'-man  ::)  );  yet the Reserves doesn't seem to have collapsed under the weight of fraudulent sign-ins or abysmal penmanship.
 
a Sig Op said:
Fortunately, we use the extremely secure, virtually infallible system tossing a piece of paper on a table and scribbling initials on it.

In all seriousness, with the military ID, 404s, smart card, and the dozen or so other cards to be carried around in the wallet, why not simplify everything... a combined ID/404 (only stamp the "license" portion on to the card after the member is licensed to drive, do the same as provincial liscences otherwise and stamp it "this is not a lisence"). Add a magnetic strip containing the info stamped on the card, and a smart card chip for prot B encryption, activated/deactivated by the local IS folks as needed.

Simple to make a swipe card station, or use existing smart card readers to implement a card system.

Why not do like veterinarians do with pets?  Insert a chip behind every members ear and then sensors can do all that detecting whenever and wherever they may work, access, drive, etc.  All members will be linked into the system and there will be no requirement at all for signatures and carrying of cards of any kind; ID, 404, Access Passes, etc.  Sensors would read the chip implanted into your head and follow your every movement.  Only way to defeat that system would to behead someone and use their head to access points ........ I don't think that this would be too expensive a system to adopt, if people are already using for their dogs and cats.    >:D
 
dapaterson said:
Monitor MASS does not replace paysheets.  There may be functions to generate them, but the manual records still have to be maintained.
a Sig Op said:
Fortunately, we use the extremely secure, virtually infallible system tossing a piece of paper on a table and scribbling initials on it.

All necessary for legal reasons.  If a Forensic Audit has to be done, those documents must be available.  Monitor Mass would not prove the validity of such claims/payments, if it could be proven that Monitor Mass could be 'corrupted' by a less than ethical person who may be committing fraud or embezzling from the CAF. 
 
a Sig Op said:
Fortunately, we use the extremely secure, virtually infallible system tossing a piece of paper on a table and scribbling initials on it.

In all seriousness, with the military ID, 404s, smart card, and the dozen or so other cards to be carried around in the wallet, why not simplify everything... a combined ID/404 (only stamp the "license" portion on to the card after the member is licensed to drive, do the same as provincial liscences otherwise and stamp it "this is not a lisence"). Add a magnetic strip containing the info stamped on the card, and a smart card chip for prot B encryption, activated/deactivated by the local IS folks as needed.

Simple to make a swipe card station, or use existing smart card readers to implement a card system.

That is what the US Military uses.  It's called a CAC card. 
 
Hatchet Man said:
That is what the US Military uses.  It's called a CAC card.

Same with the ADF.  Everything is on it and when you go on EX/deployment, it gets scanned to prove you're there (for pay/benefits purposes). 
 
Help Desk said:
Most Reserve Units are now using Monitor MASS , check it out

Alright stop posting about Monitor MASS, not everyone in a Reserve Unit has access to it... ideally everyone would but most units have a serious lack of IT resources.

Also keep posting about MM and you will be introduced to the warning system very very fast.

MILNET.CA MENTOR
 
George Wallace said:
All necessary for legal reasons.  If a Forensic Audit has to be done, those documents must be available.  Monitor Mass would not prove the validity of such claims/payments, if it could be proven that Monitor Mass could be 'corrupted' by a less than ethical person who may be committing fraud or embezzling from the CAF.

Paper documents are no less corruptible than digital copies, if anything, digital copies are less corruptible, upload a copy to a read only archive as soon as it's produced, and if there's any mismatch, then you've had tampering, vs a paper copy, that sits on someone's desk for a few weeks before it gets filed locally.

Archiving digital documents as quite easy, and they're no less valid for audits. Maintenance records are typically produced and stored digitally now, and quite important as a record to prove maintenance, and thus due diligence was performed.

At the same time, if we were to go to a digital system for pay, we'd eliminate a lot of hassle, no more lost pay sheets, no more pay sheets from exercises that got forgotten in somone's jacket for a month. Sure there'll be teething issues, and sure there'll be issues related to software/hardware, but as long as there's an option for the paper backup you'll be fine.

I used to deal with the same crap from my civillian employer (I no longer work for those folks). We filled our our hours in books of carbon paper, and any ammendments were marked "ammendent" and also filled out in carbon paper... IF the pay sheets made it to the office before the next pay run, and IF they got processed by the one lonely clerk buried under a pile of pay sheets, and IF they didn't get misplaced/lost, you MIGHT get your over time in 6 weeks.

Vs my new employer, as long as I've got everything emailed in by 3:30 on Friday, I get paid by 6:00 that same after noon.

Now, with old employer, everyone griped about the delay to get paid over time/allowances etc, but when the subject of going over to spread sheets, there was a huge opposition to it, you wouldn't believe how absurd most of the arguments were against it, mostly it all boiled down to the majority of the employees being arbitrarily fearful of change, and computer illiterate... add to that any time computerized systems were introduced, they seldom lived up to expectations, not because they weren't effective systems, but because the employer provided no training on how to use the systems (our maintenance work order system being a prime example, great piece of software, and those of us who endeavored to sit down on our own time after hours with the manual had no problems with it... but it was pretty much useless, because very few of us were willing to take the unreasonable measure of wasting our own time to learn to use the new system when the employer wouldn't spring for a few hours of over time for training. The employer wants you to use the system, the employer needs to train you to use the system)

Edit: Come to think of it, it's the same as this monitor mass crap that keeps being posted. I've been told all sorts of wonderful things about monitor mass, but I've never had, and never will have any training on it. I've also been told that there's a tutorial included with the software, and I should go through the tutorial. Except I get three hours a week to do my job, which includes doing the jobs of two other people. Finding one of very few computers in a reserve unit, then waiting an hour for it to log in, and another hour for monitor mass to load, is low on my priority list, and coming in on my own time to do it is even lower on the priority list.
 
If you can't go a month without introducing new swirls and smilies and hearts instead of dots to your signature then perhaps it's time to go back to junior high. Serious.
 
Scott said:
If you can't go a month without introducing new swirls and smilies and hearts instead of dots to your signature then perhaps it's time to go back to junior high. Serious.
I believe the gentleman you're trying to shame hasn't been active on this forum in close to five years. What do we call that - a "necro-taunt"?
 
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