Benefits Cut...

[Haggis]

So what are your thoughts on Class B reservists who volunteer Class A at their units, and who normally receive no financial or time off benefits?  This new rule will mean that every time they help out their home unit, they go in the hole for gas.  That hardly seems fair.  Is the answer for them to now claim MTEC (using a cost comparison) instead?

You are not the first to ask this question this week.

Here's a radical idea (which I've already pushed up the chain of command):  tie the entitlement of TA for Class B members to the Class A duties being performed by the member - irrespective of what TOS the member is being paid under - and leave it to either the unit or formation level to approve/deny the allowance.  If the member voluntarily chooses to support his/a unit, the unit supports him back.

 

[ArmyGuy99]

Begin Rant.....

Ok, so I've spent the day reading over the posts and absorbing what everyone is saying about the IR deductions, and the movement of some items from one Move Folder to another in IRP. 

What my main concern is, and what nobody else has mentioned, is the loss of MLI and the mortgage penalties.  And yes I know we are supposed to get Portable Mortgages (mine is btw).  What if the bank won't give you one.  And thanks to a lack of RHU's or even affordable RHUs practically everywhere, this could present a problem;

Eg:

Pte Bloggins is posted from his QL3 crse to his first unit.  Now Pte Bloggins has a young wife and a small child.  He calls up his new base and finds there are no RHU's or SQ's available (Not Unheard of).  He /she must now live out.  There is no suitable or affordable place to rent, so he seeks a mortgage to purchase a house. Because Pte. Bloggins is young and has little to no credit, the bank forces him /her into a non-portable mortgage.  Which is still cheaper then rentling.

3 years later

With 2 years left on the mortgage Pte Bloggins is posted to a new base.  Under the old rules, not a big problem while the funds might not  cover ALL the penalties, the impact was lessoned (I know I had this happen to me).

Under the new rules, Pte. Bloggins can't afford to sell or he/she will loose $1000's in penalties.  So Pte. Bloggins can either eat it and maybe suffer financially, or cost the crown more $$ by going on IR.  But wait, there's nowhere for pte bloggins to live, without causing undo hardship, and if he/she manages to get into SQ the amount charged for R&Q..... I think you guys get the picture here.


Now I realize that not all trades are on a 5 year posting cycle, and some may move around a little more than others, and that buying a house is always a gamble no matter what.  So if that's the case, either convince whoever has the Defense Banking Contract to offer affordable 3 yr mortgages, or provide more AFFORDABLE RHU's.  My Mortage with Property taxes is almost 50% cheaper then the rent for a similar sqft RHU. 


....Rant Completed  :2c: deposited

 

[newwifey]

According to another site, there is another canforgen to come out that's to explain how this last one will be applied.

I asked if it was expected Aug. 31/12  ;D

 

[TCM621]

One of the things I hate about these types of canforgens is they are a one page format with no explanation. When I go see the clerk's tomorrow demanding an explanation, they will have nothing to tell me. When I send up a memo, requesting a posting back to my family based on the prohibitive cost of seperation, they won't have any idea how to proceed and probably make a poor decision because they have no info

 

[Grunt]

I love the Canadian Forces, for all its faults I have worked with amazing people the past five years.  Some came here to succeed, while others just want to do the bare minimum, sit in the locker area and complain if were not off of work by 2pm on a friday.  All im going to say is im worried about the state of the Forces over the next few years; this is disappointing and to those saying "if you dont like it then leave".  Look around the Military the past few years and you will notice one thing, is that many experienced guys that have goals and drive, not the guys just looking to get on the cadpat welfare train and do the bare minimum are getting out and moving onto bigger and better things.  IMHO if you want to attract people that want to stay in the CF, and make a serious career of it with a family you have to pay better to compete with the private sector.  And if higher pay is not possible there has to be benefits (ie a Cpl makes around 52,000 a year while a police officer of roughly the same experience will make around 70,000 not including over time, which a CF member will never be paid for).  For example why does a Cpl/Mcpl with a family want to stick around a job that outright screws with his personal admin (oh your wife has a degree and a career how dare she!), and make less money on a job where he can be a phone call away from deploying half way around the world for months on end when he can return to school and get a better paying job?  Treat people like the lowest common denominator and dont be surprised if thats all we have left hanging around the Forces in the next few years.

 

[exabedtech]

I love the Canadian Forces, for all its faults I have worked with amazing people the past five years.  Some came here to succeed, while others just want to do the bare minimum, sit in the locker area and complain if were not off of work by 2pm on a friday.  All im going to say is im worried about the state of the Forces over the next few years; this is disappointing and to those saying "if you dont like it then leave".  Look around the Military the past few years and you will notice one thing, is that many experienced guys that have goals and drive, not the guys just looking to get on the cadpat welfare train and do the bare minimum are getting out and moving onto bigger and better things.  IMHO if you want to attract people that want to stay in the CF, and make a serious career of it with a family you have to pay better to compete with the private sector.  And if higher pay is not possible there has to be benefits (ie a Cpl makes around 52,000 a year while a police officer of roughly the same experience will make around 70,000 not including over time, which a CF member will never be paid for).  For example why does a Cpl/Mcpl with a family want to stick around a job that outright screws with his personal admin (oh your wife has a degree and a career how dare she!), and make less money on a job where he can be a phone call away from deploying half way around the world for months on end when he can return to school and get a better paying job?  Treat people like the lowest common denominator and dont be surprised if thats all we have left hanging around the Forces in the next few years.

This is nothing new, I watched the same thing happen throughout my career and it always will.  We always had a saying for it "The Army is like an oil filter... the good stuff flows on the though, but the shit stays forever". 

Sorry, but get used to it.

 

[Bridger]

Being a married member on prohibited posting (currently on PAT) I've benefited from two of the biggest benefits being cut; and quite frankly they're going to hurt...  That said, I'm not opposed to what they're doing.

It would appear they're still going to pay for my quarters and maybe some duplicate expenses (as they should, I'm not separated by choice); but I'm very concerned about the cost of rations.  I'm not against paying for rations, fair enough, I'm not currently paying to feed myself at home or otherwise...  My concern (like others) is the cost...  I used to budget about $200/month to feed myself at home, I ate well enough, it was reasonable.  Unfortunatly $200 is a far cry from the $500+ being charged to eat at the mess; and I don't seem to have a choice with regards to paying for that.

Forgive me for sounding like an absolute noob to the CF (because I am), but is there anyway to get the message accross to the decision makers that more reasonable options are needed?

I'm okay with losing the SE payments (sucks, but sacrifices must be made), I'm even okay with paying something for my food; but they need to compensate for the difference in cost...

 

[astecki]

My wife and I are both recent recruits, I graduated BMQ in Dec 11 and she in Apr 12.  I am posted to Meaford and she is in Borden, both of us sitting on PAT (or PRETC) waiting for our QL3 courses.  We also still maintain our apartment in the west end of the GTA where we live on weekends.  Until this point, only she has been paying rations and we have been receiving IR pay, so with the changes that pay will be gone and I will now be charged for rations.  As both of us are "students", there is no option at all to live off base or opt out of rations.  These changes represent a full 29% reduction in our combined take home monthly pay.  We'll survive, but that is a HUGE hit to take.

I am so glad that I listened in BMQ when they said "Never count IR pay when making a budget, you never know when it will be taken away".  Until now, it's been going into a savings account for a rainy day.  Now it looks like it'll be a couple of rainy months. 

 

[NavyHopeful]

Who does IR affect?  Primarily senior personnel.  As a proportion of pers at different ranks, you're most likley to be on IR if you're a CWO/CPO1, followed by GOFO or MWO/CPO2.  In raw numbers, the ranks with the most pers on IR are Sgt/PO2, WO/PO1 and Maj/LCdr.

While this statement is likely true, I find myself in the same situation as Dexen.  I am currently on my QL3s, and I start my 2nd semester in September.  I am in Halifax, and my wife and 1 year old son are near Petawawa, on the Quebec side.  I have been told by my PO that I can write a memo to have my posting status changed to an advanced posting status to move my family before my course is done, but standard procedure is to keep the member "Restricted Posted" until after the QL3 phase is complete.  I am an OS, making the bare minimum, and I am realizing that housing in Halifax is more expensive than what I pay back home.  I know that if they were here, the costs of living might be a little easier of a pill to swallow, but I find myself a little dazed at having to figure out how to keep food on the table at home, diapers on the boy-o, and whether I should be paying more than my current rent payment for full-rations, or more than my car payment for half-rations.  It's likely that I will end up becoming the poster boy for KD and Mr. Noodles, because, with the wife out of work, and unable to find anything back home for work, I am the ONLY source of income.

Yeah, from what I've gained here, people do abuse the system.  And I know that, no matter how much I whine, cry, stomp, kick, or complain, this is not going to be reversed or changed.  So what happens now?  Well, it's a good thing my wife has been saving whatever she can, and used the savings to get my flight home for 2 weeks leave in August, or I wouldn't get to see my son for more than 2 weeks this year.  Flights to Ottawa are expensive, especially when you don't have any disposable income, and LTA is only available once a year.

I know some may rip on this post, and tell me to "suck it up" or "If I don't like it, I can leave", and those are valid comments, from their point of view.  The reality is, if I do VR, I have nothing career-wise to go back to.  Some join the CF as a first choice, some because they pay for the education, and others join because life has chewed them up, and spit them out, and have nowhere else to go.  I am one of those who has tried everything and came to the CF as a last resort, just to have some form of job security.  I did not join for the money, and I did not join for the benefits.  I joined to serve my country, and to do something worthwile with myself.  Plain and simple.

Yeah, IR is getting cut back.  And if rations in Halifax are getting boosted up to $900/month, like what was posted earlier, well forget it.  I can eat Mr. Noodles until I look like them.  I don't care.  I'll still be here. 

I don't like being on IR.  I wish I COULD have my family with me.  I would rather be living in some shitbox house with my wife and son, and have to pay for my food and housing, then to have to live away from them for over 19 months, paying for some other shitbox house I only see for about a month of the year (along with the costs of running said shitbox house), and groceries for both residences, and a car that I don't get to drive unless I'm home.

I'll do what I have to do, in order to do the job I signed up for, because, other than my family, it's all I have left.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I know some may rip on this post, and tell me to "suck it up" or "If I don't like it, I can leave", and those are valid comments, from their point of view.  The reality is, if I do VR, I have nothing career-wise to go back to.  Some join the CF as a first choice, some because they pay for the education, and others join because life has chewed them up, and spit them out, and have nowhere else to go.  I am one of those who has tried everything and came to the CF as a last resort, just to have some form of job security.  I did not join for the money, and I did not join for the benefits.  I joined to serve my country, and to do something worthwile with myself.  Plain and simple.

So you joined because it was the last resort?

Was the length of your course, and the fact that you would be posted restricted until completion of said course, never mentioned to you? Did you not expect that, upon joining the CF (as much as it was the last thing in the world you wanted to do apparently, there was nothing else left right???), that some sacrifices would have to be made, and that, despite your BMQ certificate of military achievement, you are actually a very inconsequential part of a very big machine? You haven't done any tours, deployed anywhere, you aren't even qualified to do your job, yet believe that you deserve the same benefits and entitlements as those of us who have deployed, who have been in longer that 5 minutes, that have made the same sacrifices you are making, over and over again? When I joined I received no allowance to travel home, no special perks, no seperation expense, no rations at public expense, no mileage allowance when I was posted during basic and trades training, no LTA, and my family was 3,000 miles away. I accepted this because I made the choice knowing full well I was on my own if I wanted to see anyone from my family. Quite frankly, it's part of the job.

I'm not trying to have a go at those of you in the training system who find yourselves in this situation, but I do not have sympathy for you. You should have made yourselves aware of all the potential implications of your career and trade choice, and as one poster said, not counted on IR benefits, particularly when you are at the start of your career.

 

[Jarnhamar]

  I am one of those who has tried everything and came to the CF as a last resort
I joined to serve my country, and to do something worthwile with myself.

Serve your country and do something worth while as a last resort, how noble of you  ;D

Mind you I joined for a cheese burger..



Shit I just realized I won't be getting free food at the kitchen anymore!
Second job here I come.

 

[brihard]

I love the Canadian Forces, for all its faults I have worked with amazing people the past five years.  Some came here to succeed, while others just want to do the bare minimum, sit in the locker area and complain if were not off of work by 2pm on a friday.  All im going to say is im worried about the state of the Forces over the next few years; this is disappointing and to those saying "if you dont like it then leave".  Look around the Military the past few years and you will notice one thing, is that many experienced guys that have goals and drive, not the guys just looking to get on the cadpat welfare train and do the bare minimum are getting out and moving onto bigger and better things.  IMHO if you want to attract people that want to stay in the CF, and make a serious career of it with a family you have to pay better to compete with the private sector.  And if higher pay is not possible there has to be benefits (ie a Cpl makes around 52,000 a year while a police officer of roughly the same experience will make around 70,000 not including over time, which a CF member will never be paid for).  For example why does a Cpl/Mcpl with a family want to stick around a job that outright screws with his personal admin (oh your wife has a degree and a career how dare she!), and make less money on a job where he can be a phone call away from deploying half way around the world for months on end when he can return to school and get a better paying job?  Treat people like the lowest common denominator and dont be surprised if thats all we have left hanging around the Forces in the next few years.

So you're comparing a Cpl with a police officer? I assume you've not applied to a police force lately? They're a hell of a lot more selective than the CF is, and the degree of individual responsibility greatly exceeds what we see out of most Pte/Cpls. And I don't know why you'd bring up police pay when your sentence started with 'compare with the private sector'.

Tell me where else someone with no education will make 55k a year within 4 years, get all of their technical and trade training paid for, will have real career prospects where they are actively guided towards and through advancement, where subsequent education is heavily subsidized, and wher eth ekind of leave, benefits, and pension we have actually exist.

I think you're looking at the world with rose coloured glasses if you think our compensation package doesn't compare brilliantly to the civilian job market. If you think the CF treats us like the 'lowest common denominator', go put some time in retail, or a call center, or landscaping or what have you. And if going to school equalled a high(er) paying job by default I'd have a lot of damned well off friends. Instead with what I make as a reserve JNCO I'm doing a hell of a lot better than nearly everyone I got an undergraduate degree with.

No, your complaints do not pass the sniff test.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

^^^^^^THIS ^^^^^^^

:goodpost:

 

[eliminator]

I love the Canadian Forces, for all its faults I have worked with amazing people the past five years.  Some came here to succeed, while others just want to do the bare minimum, sit in the locker area and complain if were not off of work by 2pm on a friday.  All im going to say is im worried about the state of the Forces over the next few years; this is disappointing and to those saying "if you dont like it then leave".  Look around the Military the past few years and you will notice one thing, is that many experienced guys that have goals and drive, not the guys just looking to get on the cadpat welfare train and do the bare minimum are getting out and moving onto bigger and better things.  IMHO if you want to attract people that want to stay in the CF, and make a serious career of it with a family you have to pay better to compete with the private sector.  And if higher pay is not possible there has to be benefits (ie a Cpl makes around 52,000 a year while a police officer of roughly the same experience will make around 70,000 not including over time, which a CF member will never be paid for).  For example why does a Cpl/Mcpl with a family want to stick around a job that outright screws with his personal admin (oh your wife has a degree and a career how dare she!), and make less money on a job where he can be a phone call away from deploying half way around the world for months on end when he can return to school and get a better paying job?  Treat people like the lowest common denominator and dont be surprised if thats all we have left hanging around the Forces in the next few years.

The grass is always greener on the other side eh? I have a good friend who left the CF as a Cpl for a job with the OPP. While he did make in excess of 100k last year after overtime, he regrets leaving the CF for a numbers of reasons. Bottom line, money isn't everything.  Go read some of the British military forums out there and read about some of the cuts they're dealing with to add some perspective.

 

[Petard]

Exactly.  I've seen units whose key positions were filled by someone on TA, because the only - not just "most qualified" - applicant lived outside the geographical area.  Chief clerk, for example. 

Between this and the elimination of the pension & 35-day break for former Reg F mbrs, it's getting harder for units to keep certain posns filled.  We have a few mbrs on Class B who are looking for non-uniformed jobs now, so they can keep drawing their Reg F pension instead.  That experience will be lost.  Yes, these benefits are not exactly "core" to CF operations, and maybe they are an appropriate target at this time - but the impact on staffing needs to be acknowledged.

This is definitely a dilemma the unit I am with faces. Some likely openings began to appear in our line serials late last winter, one because the Class B person was going to quit, another because a Reg F pers made plans to get out on being posted to the unit, and yet a third for the same reason. We had some interest expressed by some retired Reg F pers in the area, but once the prohibition of "double dipping" came into effect, they went away.
There seemed to be some hope with qualified P Res pers applying, but they all lived some distance away, and now with no TAA, will not be applying either
We may get the odd local person applying, but all under ranked, and therefore not fully qualified

For those pushing the "suck it up butter cup, these are hard times", you might want to dial it down a tad.  These might seem like minor reductions over all, and harder times might yet be coming, I get that, but this is incremental, and I think we're only seeing the thin side of the wedge here.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

For those pushing the "suck it up butter cup, these are hard times", you might want to dial it down a tad.  These might seem like minor reductions over all, and harder times might yet be coming, I get that, but this is incremental, and I think we're only seeing the thin side of the wedge here.

Then again, by the same notion, we should remember this furore in 12 months time when, having bicycled to the ranges for our 10rd Lee Enfield PWT, the 15 of us left ante-reductionem will look back fondly on the time when we got more than iron ingots for barter as pay. ;D

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That is some funny sh!t.  :goodpost:

 

[Jay4th]

I bought a house in Edmonton this winter while on second language training after being told I was going to 1 PPCLI post course.  I recieved a posting message to 1PPCLI and my wife got a class B in Edmonton.  All is right with the world....

Career Mgr calls, crying for a Sgt to go to Wainwright... I explain about the new house, wife's contract and he explains IR to me.  I speak to wife, and we agree to do it for a year til her contract ends at which time we will try to sell the house if possible, and move her to Wainwright as well. No big Deal, if we can only sell for what we paid, at least the early repayment fees are covered.......NOW THIS CRAP !!! 
Convertible mortgage and buy in Wainwright? NO WAY!! The people leaving there can't sell theirs now, I'm not buying there.
Now basically my damned employer gets to dictate what kind of mortgage I can accept!!! WT? people.
Generally speaking, if you were willing to lock in, you could negotiate a better interest rate, if you got posted, part of the breaking fees were covered.  Now, mortgage brokers and banks should see us comin, see us as a risk, give us crappy rate knowing we have no choice!

Wainwright has a yukon lodge, so I live there, I pay my own internet, I pay gas to go home on weekends.  The $320 bucks I get from the clerk each month covers that.  NOT ANY MORE!!!  (the inter-base bus service died long ago)

Wainwright kitchen has only an "all or nuthin" plan.  So as of Sept I pay $540/month or I eat microwavables because thats the only appliance allowed!!

So the way I see it, I'm out $860 bucks.  Please point out to me how I was abusing the system, or how any of this was really my choice.  I know several Sgts, for whom driving home to see their kids will literally take food from their mouths.

 

[wesleyd]

Are you paying out of pocket for them? No. It is still paid for.

But these are cost essential to moving not of personal choice.

 

[wesleyd]

I bought a house in Edmonton this winter while on second language training after being told I was going to 1 PPCLI post course.  I recieved a posting message to 1PPCLI and my wife got a class B in Edmonton.  All is right with the world....

Career Mgr calls, crying for a Sgt to go to Wainwright... I explain about the new house, wife's contract and he explains IR to me.  I speak to wife, and we agree to do it for a year til her contract ends at which time we will try to sell the house if possible, and move her to Wainwright as well. No big Deal, if we can only sell for what we paid, at least the early repayment fees are covered.......NOW THIS CRAP !!! 
Convertible mortgage and buy in Wainwright? NO WAY!! The people leaving there can't sell theirs now, I'm not buying there.
Now basically my damned employer gets to dictate what kind of mortgage I can accept!!! WT? people.
Generally speaking, if you were willing to lock in, you could negotiate a better interest rate, if you got posted, part of the breaking fees were covered.  Now, mortgage brokers and banks should see us comin, see us as a risk, give us crappy rate knowing we have no choice!
Agreed

Wainwright has a yukon lodge, so I live there, I pay my own internet, I pay gas to go home on weekends.  The $320 bucks I get from the clerk each month covers that.  NOT ANY MORE!!!  (the inter-base bus service died long ago)

Wainwright kitchen has only an "all or nuthin" plan.  So as of Sept I pay $540/month or I eat microwavables because thats the only appliance allowed!!

So the way I see it, I'm out $860 bucks.  Please point out to me how I was abusing the system, or how any of this was really my choice.  I know several Sgts, for whom driving home to see their kids will literally take food from their mouths.