Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[pbi]

Heh, I guess I'm still a little too revolutionary for the tastes of many. Less gay useless kit ==happy troop (No offence to homosexuals intended)

Not really-you are standing in a long line of nay-sayers. The bayonet has been derided and dismissed for decades now-it almost slipped out of favour altogether in the post WWII years, until the realities of close combat in Korea suddenly reminded people why we might want to stab folks at close quarters. (Read David Hackworth's account of the state of US Infantry training at the start of the Korean War) in About Face.

But really, the bayonet is so small in terms of the space that it takes up, that it shouldn't be a problem to carry it as well as humping as much ammo as you.

And, BTW (since I am increasingly out of touch with such things...) where are we getting the statement that only a certain number of people in a section (ie: "two" was mentioned...) would carry bayonets. Is this a change to personal weapon EIS?

Cheers

 

[Britney Spears]

And, BTW (since I am increasingly out of touch with such things...) where are we getting the statement that only a certain number of people in a section (ie: "two" was mentioned...) would carry bayonets. Is this a change to personal weapon EIS?

No change to personal weapon EIS.

For a British 8 man(or is it 12?) section, a fireteam of 4 would have 1x L86 LSW (no bayonet), 1x L85/AG36 (AG36 means no bayonet) 1x Minimi LMG (no bayonet) and 1x L85 IW. So a modern Brit bayonet charge would be conducted soley by the sect. Commander and 2IC (who have the bayonets). According to the original article, the Brits did not procurre any bayonets for their M-16/C-7 FOW. Does the AR-10T have a bayonet lug? What about the C7CT uppers?


Darn, I was hoping one of the new recruits/young subbies would get triped up with that one (and thus secure for the board our new target of ridicule for the week), but looks like they all saw it coming.  Now I'm really in the $hit...... ;D

 

[a_majoor]

As long as everyone is clear that a bayonet is a tool which has one particular use, and may come in handy for many other uses, then there is nothing really to argue about. Even before the advent of firearms, the threat of cold steel was a huge morale breaker: rows of pikes were used in the middle ages to deter mounted attacks, and the bayonet is the lineal descendant of the pike!

In terms of its utility, I looked up a chapter on the Napoleonic wars in "Forward to Battle", and refreshed my memory on the use of the bayonet in the 1800s in the Peninsular campaign. Contrary to the popular image of a "thin red line" pouring musket fire onto bumbling columns of French troops, the British tended to "hide" on reverse slopes or lie down in tall grass while the French artillery blasted away, and British Riflemen and French Voltigures traded shots (since the French main body was exposed, the Riflemen could also pick off officers). As the riflemen withdrew and formed on the left of the line, the French columns would begin to advance, still only having a general idea of the location of the British line (usually by observing the actions of the rifles and the location of the artillery, which could not hide).

At the right moment. the British line would stand up, discharge a single volley into the French column, then advance behind bayonets. The French column would usually collapse at this point, without ever waiting to cross bayonets with the British! Even hardened formations like the Imperial Guards were unable to withstand this, the climactic moment at Waterloo was the Imperial Guard recoiling from the British "Guards" when they rose out of the cornfields and attacked with a volley and charge.

Although I would personally never expect to do a bayonet charge, I do keep the idea of the psychological effect of cold steel in the back of my mind. Even on exercise, I have seen the effect on troop morale when the order "Fix Bayonets" is given (both in the defense and the offense), and can only imagine the effect on a real enemy when suddenly confronted by a bristling row of bayonets.

 

[KevinB]

I agree in the terms of a section attack in the plains/field of Eurpoe it can be a psychological advantage.

However in our current scenarios especially with fighting in complex terrain - they are a detriment to our task.


The current C7 bayonet is a useless knife.  It is a poor prod - the cleaning kit rod is better.  It only really function is a bayonet - and then it is poor design for that. 

I saw the new bayonet and it is a better design - and a useful utility tool.  Until then I think I'll keep my own knife on my RAV and leave the bayo in my large pile of useless CF kit...

 

[Bomber]

The new bayonet will be a god send to anyone that needs a good tool in a pinch.  It has no problem going through barb wire, I used it to open 105mm boxes.  And there is only a wee little nick in the tip of the blade.  So far it is showing almost no where, also the integrated sharpener puts a wicked edge on it, which is nice because you now have a useful utility knife, the current one made of the most brittle steel known to man should be dropped off the east coast to make a nice dull artificial reef.

 

[JimmyPeeOn]

So what do we do then?  Can't get a silenced weapon, impact technique if im lucky enough to have a shovel and hit that small target, unarmed technique, but that needs loads of training time and an unskilled opponent, and highly skilled operator. Then there's the knife technique, well too much body noise and others aren't necessarily flawless anyways.  May as well not train any of them then and when needed call in the recce platoon or SF to get those silenced weapons.....
I dunno about you guys, but I've been told if he's not wearing a helmet jam it in the temple. Again small target I know, but a lot less noise. Except for crunch, squish and the body hitting the ground.

 

[Kal]

I dunno about you guys, but I've been told if he's not wearing a helmet jam it in the temple. Again small target I know, but a lot less noise. Except for crunch, squish and the body hitting the ground.

    Could, still not a guarantee to drop them, however.  May just knock him out and have him wake up a couple minutes later, if it were to be done, once they are on the ground they would have to be put down for good.  It would almost be too elementary for some I think.  Besides, you want to train in tactics and techniques that you can utilize in any situation. 

 

[Kal]

still cant be used in all situations, even if the person is wearing some type of heavy head covering, a lot of the impact force is lost and that sharp end fact is at least partially negated.

 

[SteelMag]

Just a quick comment..

To the soldier who carries an M-4A1 (C8) would a bayonet not be to useful mounted on such a short carbine.  Ive had the opprutunity to hold a C-8 that the OPP is using now and the weapon is outstandingly small for a carbine to me.  Now isnt the point of a bayonet to extend your reach during hand to hand combat (like a olden day spear) so you dont have to get within range to be grabbed by your opponent.  Old military rifles seem to be long sometimes for the purpose of bayonet fighting (japanese arsakias sp? type 38 bolt action rifle comes to mind as its length with bayonet attached gave much better reach than US rifles).

So is the bayonet becoming less effective because of the military becoming more reliant on shorter more compact weapons.

 

[big_johnson1]

So what do we do then?   Can't get a silenced weapon, impact technique if im lucky enough to have a shovel and hit that small target, unarmed technique, but that needs loads of training time and an unskilled opponent, and highly skilled operator. Then there's the knife technique, well too much body noise and others aren't necessarily flawless anyways.   May as well not train any of them then and when needed call in the recce platoon or SF to get those silenced weapons.....

I thought that was why we're recruiting ninjasnipers.. They can do ANYTHING..

Honestly though.. You are right, I didn't exactly leave any other options, but to tell you the truth, I can't think of any. Killing quietly is not an easy thing to do apparently, but maybe we need to examine if the average soldier is ever going to need that skill? If it is worth it to train everyone, maybe more training in H2H, or knife fighting, or throw a garrote into the mix.

 

[a_majoor]

The argument is getting into the "practical" rather than the psychological. A C-8 with a bayonet fixed is still going to get more of a reaction than one without, which is what we are really hoping for anyway.

If we are looking at the utility of various blades and edged weapons in combat, then go to a good museum and check out the weapons collections from the late middle ages. For Infantry soldiers of that age, bill hooks, gliaves and halberds, backed by a good short sword or dagger were the ideal weapons. Japanese Samurai and their retainers were also well versed in polearms, and had access to short blades in addition to the Samurai sword.

Since we fight with firearms rather than polearms, we need to keep the idea of a fighting knife as a backup (when all else fails), and the ability to mount it on the end of our rifle is a huge plus in many situations. A 22" "sword" bayonet is not really useful, but the current 8" blade should suffice for the 90% solution. The other 10%; i.e. silent sentry take out and other SF type work is probably best handled with special kit and special training (silenced weapons with locked "single shot" actions and subsonic ammunition). Personaly, I would rather have my mayhem "over there" rather than in my face, so the bayonet is not my first choice of tool, but rather my last.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Pretty good thread.

Does anyone have a picture of the new bayonet?

Ours is very very poor quality. It's often a joke how many of them troops can manage to break during obsticle courses or bayonet training.

I've seen a lot of pictures of crowd confrontations in Iraq and the soldiers more often than not had bayonets fixed. I think it's an obvious psychological issue for people on both ends of the tip.

edit: KevinB you really have some badass toys to play with.

 

[COBRA-6]

Ours is very very poor quality. It's often a joke how many of them troops can manage to break during obsticle courses or bayonet training.

Indeed, we did the bayonet assault course in Ft Knox, I could not believe how many were broken... not very re-assuring... is that because the white metal is supposed to be non-magnetic for mine-probing? Something I've heard but never seen in a pam...

 

[Bomber]

Hard as all hell to post this on here. But here is the link

http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Vehicles/Equipment/New_Bayonet1.JPG

 

[Canadian Sig]

No way does that even remotly look like it will fit in the same spot on the tac vest. I love the way we spend money...lol  :dontpanic:

 

[Jarnhamar]

That bayonet looks pretty good to me.   Sorta reminds me of the american one.

I've seen a few pictures of our guys wearing the bayonet on the straps to the left (or right) side of the tacvest at the bottom.   Seems like it's roughly in the same spot where the bayonet would be on the 82 webbing.

Man, some people are really all about cutting up peoples necks and killing sentries.
If I ever had to kill a sentry i'd probably use a rock because if im cutting up food with my bayonet after and theres some dudes blood on it that would be gross. Ever watch CSI? Blood don't just wash off.

 

[Bomber]

Bayonet mounts in the same spot.  I have seen the pictures of the guys putting them on the sides and back, the only problem with it in the middle is that the new one will not shatter on your jaw if you jam it in and miss the scabbard, it will give you one hell of a nasty shaving scratch.

 

[Bomber]

http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Weapons/Bayonet_mounted.JPG

Here she be.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Cutting up food, that's what a tactical folder is for.

You ever try cutting a can of ravioli open with a pocket knife?  
Man leave the pocket knife at home and carry 5 more bullets!  :blotto:

I was attempting a little sarcasim, you seem to miss it often heh
I  find that many people seem to have some romantic concept of soldiers running around "slotting tangos" with a knife. I agree there are actually times and places for that sort of thing (and it doesnt hurt to have the training) but many young soldiers, i think, really need to be grounded. I know many of our peers in the reserve world talk about killing just being killing and all the high speed shit they would do with all the SF/JTF slang.

I think many of our peers  (hell maybe me or you)  would shit their pants if they actually had to use a bayonet to kill someone. I'm a big fan of trying to convince reserve world 'operators' to slow down a little. I find some guys try and use "the lingo" to seemingly make up for less experience or TI?

If you want to practice using a bayonet of all things to kill someone more power to you. I figure i'll use my bayonet for more menial tasks such as cutting rope, making tent pegs or trench markers, cutting foilage in a hide, attaching it to the C7 blade pointing down so i can dig it into the ground and sleep with my helmet on the scope
I know theres better tools out there for that job, i carry a kabar knife/cold steel recon tanto or the survival version of the "jump knife" when im in the field. I always ask my wife which one i should bring and she tells me to fuck off. (Point to note, wives dont give a shit what knife you bring to the field)
I'd just like to see a better model bayonet so you can use it more effectively as a tool, you know, have wider applications.

Edited a lot becuase i spell like a 5 year old.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

You ever try cutting a can of ravioli open with a pocket knife?  
Man leave the pocket knife at home and carry 5 more bullets!  :blotto:
. I figure i'I'llse my bayonet for more menial tasks such as cutting rope, making tent pegs or trench markers, cutting foilage in a hide, attaching it to the C7 blade pointing down so i can dig it into the ground and sleep with my helmet on the scope
I know theres better tools out there for that job, i carry a kabar knife/cold steel recon tanto or the survival version of the "jump knife" when im in the field. I always ask my wife which one i should bring and she tells me to **** off. (Point to note, wives dont give a crap what knife you bring to the field)
I'd just like to see a better model bayonet so you can use it more effectively as a tool, you know, have wider applications.

Edited a lot becuase i spell like a 5 year old.

    The Old FN bayonette, once you got an edge on it, was the second best tool for any job required in the field, and lighter than carrying the other seventy odd tools that were better for each of the tasks.  It was unbreakable (save for the truly gifted), and if you did ever need to stick someone, it was designed to be an excellent penetrating weapon.  It was not for finesse throat cutting or other commando crap, it was designed for the intended purpose of punching through watever was between hilt and heart.  It was a general infantry weapon, not a special forces "silent death" anti sentry device, but again, its the second best tool for the job, and if you have to take a stab at it (pardon the pun) then it will do as a field expedient.  The first C7 bayonet introduced was a fragile piece of crap.  I am used to abusing my bayonet, and so I broke a few.  If you're going to carry one, give us one that can take a little punishment, and can actually do the job.  The new one actually looks like a bayonette, and sounds like it can take a little abuse.  Its about time we got a decent one.  The bayonete is not obsolete, except when your issue kit is a useless heap of (edit comming) sh*t.