B.C. keeps $1.5b Submarine contract

[Sub Standard]

However, the FC system and torpedoes are still basically what was installed for SOUP. The cutting edge of submarine technology...in 1979.

The system we are using these days in the Victoria's for FC is far from 1979 era technology.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

You're right...my bad.

The heart of the Librascope system was designed in the early 1970's, and first released all-up in 1978. It was installed in all 3 boats from 1982-1985.

So basically it's early 1970's technology.

The boats have new displays, but that's equivalent to setting a new video card and flat screen monitor on your old 286 and expecting it to run new applications or run the old ones faster...it's not going to happen.

The torpedoes were also designed in the same time frame, and they haven't had any changes at all.

 

[Sailorwest]

Looks like about another year at the least to get Victoria to the point she can fire torpedoes. Probably another 2-3 years after that for the rest of the boats.

However, the FC system and torpedoes are still basically what was installed for SOUP. The cutting edge of submarine technology...in 1979.

Pardon my ignorance on the issue (I am not a submariner and have little desire to become one) but are you suggesting that the VIC class can't fire any torpedos?

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Why wouldn't you want to become a submariner? That whole cleanliness thing is just a joke ya know. Submariners shower every week whether they need it or not.  :skull:

But no, the Victorias currently have issues firing torpedoes. Victoria herself completed a weapons cert before she went into the refit without end, but the other boats either haven't completed "Canadianisation" or haven't run weapons certs and therefore aren't allowed to shoot.

Victoria should be able to shoot again once she's left refit, run her post-refit trials, run her workups and then run her weapons certs. If everything goes right that should be end-2009/2010. The other boats will have to wait until they've finished the same series of trials/wups/etc. There should be one tricling out every year or so.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect life on the Upholders is likely 2-3 more pleasent than on the O boats. I also expect that if all sorts of nastiness broke out, they would have their Weapon certs pretty quick. Is this the same system the Brits used to sink the Belgano? if so then it's the only combat proved system going, I can't think of another war related torpedo kill since then.

 

[Sailorwest]

It isn't really the cleanliness thing, more to do with being in a cigar tube 200 m underwater that I'm a bit uncomfortable about. Well, that and the other cigar tube issue.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I suspect life on the Upholders is likely 2-3 more pleasent than on the O boats.

I don't, but thats just opinion. The showering problem on the O-boats was because of a lack of drain space, not a lack of fresh water. At least once the ROD's were put in. The Upholders are only a few hundred tons larger than the O-boats, I doubt they significantly enlarged the grey water tanks.

I also expect that if all sorts of nastiness broke out, they would have their Weapon certs pretty quick.

I don't think so. They'd have to go to AUTEC to do that, and it's heavily scheduled. On top of that, there's a very extensive prep period. It isn't something you do off the cuff.

Is this the same system the Brits used to sink the Belgano? if so then it's the only combat proved system going, I can't think of another war related torpedo kill since then.

Not a thing in common with the Belgrano sinking. Different FC gear, different torpedoes. Different tubes for that matter.

Well, that and the other cigar tube issue.

That was never proven in a trial that wasn't later declared to be a mistrial!  :rage:

Besides, the alleged victim was allegedly drunk, and RN. If that isn't showing Canadian hospitality by supplying 2/3 of the traditional "Rum/Sodomy/Lash" triad, I don't know what is.

And did you ever think that maybe just maybe he was demonstrating how the "Bubbleless Torpedo Discharge" gear worked?

 

[Sailorwest]

Besides, the alleged victim was allegedly drunk, and RN. If that isn't showing Canadian hospitality by supplying 2/3 of the traditional "Rum/Sodomy/Lash" triad, I don't know what is.

And did you ever think that maybe just maybe he was demonstrating how the "Bubbleless Torpedo Discharge" gear worked?

LMAO . Thanks for that, I was starting to have a crappy day but that brought it back to normal. 
Cheers

 

[Sub_Guy]

I don't think so. They'd have to go to AUTEC to do that, and it's heavily scheduled. On top of that, there's a very extensive prep period. It isn't something you do off the cuff.

Isn't Nanoose capable of handling this task? 

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Only for the Victoria. The other boats have a 6500 nm transit to get to Nanoose, which has the same scheduling difficulties. Then they have a 6500 nm transit home, and they'd need a surface escort for both ways.

 

[Navy_Blue]

This would be directed to Sailorwest and anyone else who may have thought or said "Hell NO!" to Subs.  As a very Happy soon to be ETech in 07 I was politely told I would be the Submarine communities newest member.  At first after the shock wore and the numbness set in I was disappointed.  However a year and a half in I have to say its one of the best voluntold situations I have ever been subjected too.  I still enjoy my job even though I'm not a day worker with OD's under me.  I have allot of responsibility and the community as a whole is much closer and supportive.  Its worth a go if you can be completely comfortable with your mortality  >.  Just kidding   It is worth a shot.

Later

N_B

 

[Sub_Guy]

Only for the Victoria. The other boats have a 6500 nm transit to get to Nanoose, which has the same scheduling difficulties. Then they have a 6500 nm transit home, and they'd need a surface escort for both ways.

Sure it would be a long transit, I was merely pointing that we are not held hostage to the AUTEC schedule.    As for the escorts, what good is it having a submarine fleet that has to be led from port to port under the watchful eyes of our skimmers?

I seriously hope that I see the submarine fleet fully operational before I reach my 20 years! 

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Sure it would be a long transit, I was merely pointing that we are not held hostage to the AUTEC schedule.

The consequences of not using AUTEC are a lot larger than waiting for a slot to open.

As for the escorts, what good is it having a submarine fleet that has to be led from port to port under the watchful eyes of our skimmers?

Yes, well that's the question isn't it? They're definitely going to need an escort if a Nanoose slot is being held open for them...it's unlikely they'd be able to tow themselves, no matter how resourceful they are.

I seriously hope that I see the submarine fleet fully operational before I reach my 20 years! 

That would depend on what you mean by "operational". If you mean "clockwork mouse" operational, you'll probably see a lot more of that in the next few years. If you mean "combat-capable" they will NEVER be there under current plans.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Yes, well that's the question isn't it? They're definitely going to need an escort if a Nanoose slot is being held open for them...it's unlikely they'd be able to tow themselves, no matter how resourceful they are.

I find this statement completely ridiculous, they are not going to need an escort, if our submarine fleet needs an escort any where it goes then why bother?  This goes back to my belief that some of the old CPO's are sitting around with a horse and buggy in their garage, just in case their car does not start in the morning.

I could see an escort if they were sailing across the pacific, but hugging the coastline from Halifax to Esquimalt should not need the escort.

Also if they are never going to be combat capable then why have them?  A part of me wishes Harper would announce we are done with them so he could get his majority and the Navy could use the funds allocated to the submarine fleet on something else.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I find this statement completely ridiculous, they are not going to need an escort, if our submarine fleet needs an escort any where it goes then why bother?  This goes back to my belief that some of the old CPO's are sitting around with a horse and buggy in their garage, just in case their car does not start in the morning.

Yet they had an escort for Victoria's trip out West, on both coasts.

Also if they are never going to be combat capable then why have them?   A part of me wishes Harper would announce we are done with them so he could get his majority and the Navy could use the funds allocated to the submarine fleet on something else.

You mean cut capabilities even if we can't afford them?!  But...they're the government that supports the military. They can't cut capabilities. It would look bad.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Yes they had an escort during the coastal transfer, probably had more to do with training opportunities than the actual hand holding, did the Corner Brook have an escort for her trip across the pond?  Or how about the trip down south?  How would a coastal transfer be any different than a 3 month trip around the Atlantic?

The point I am trying to make is this.  They should not need the escort.  Wether they are sailing across the pond or sailing along the coast the Submarine should be able to do it alone.  It kind of takes away the stealth factor when you have a skimmer sitting on the roof above the sub.

 

[Sailorwest]

As a point of comparison, only two of the six westcoast KIN class did a coastal transfer in company. NAN came around in company with OTT and EDM with MOR. The other four ships did single ship tranfers. I would think it would be reasonable that a sub could also do this alone (the O-boats probably did it in the past), although if there were a requirement for a surface ship to be going in the same direction it might be preferable that they go together. There isn't anything terribly complicated in a coastal transfer but having another ship along to help deal with unexpected issues/emergencies, wouldn't hurt.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Yes they had an escort during the coastal transfer, probably had more to do with training opportunities than the actual hand holding,

What training? They were surfaced and a lot of the escorting was done by an MCDV.

There's not much opportunity for training in a transit because it slows down the SOA.

did the Corner Brook have an escort for her trip across the pond?  

No, but that's a smaller transit and there are a lot more ships around to give her a tow if required.

Or how about the trip down south?   How would a coastal transfer be any different than a 3 month trip around the Atlantic?

A coastal transfer is mostly transit, with most of the time pretty far from a port capable of effecting repairs on an ailing boat. That's completely different from the latest trip down South.

The point I am trying to make is this.  They should not need the escort.   Wether they are sailing across the pond or sailing along the coast the Submarine should be able to do it alone.  It kind of takes away the stealth factor when you have a skimmer sitting on the roof above the sub.

So? They shouldn't but they do. They're not supposed to spontaneously burst into flame when splashed either, but that didn't stop it from happening.

As a point of comparison, only two of the six westcoast KIN class did a coastal transfer in company. NAN came around in company with OTT and EDM with MOR. The other four ships did single ship tranfers.

Kingstons have more than one motor/prop AFAIK. You can have a casualty and the boat will still be able to move. Victorias have a bit more of a problem.

I would think it would be reasonable that a sub could also do this alone (the O-boats probably did it in the past), although if there were a requirement for a surface ship to be going in the same direction it might be preferable that they go together.

O-boats did do it alone in the past. And it bit us in the ass in a huge way on their last West coast patrol. As humiliating as a tow would have been, it would have been greatly preferred to what actually happened.

There isn't anything terribly complicated in a coastal transfer but having another ship along to help deal with unexpected issues/emergencies, wouldn't hurt.

You'd be surprised what can crop up when you have no backup. Or your backup and primary both go T/U.

 

[gwp]

Yet they had an escort for Victoria's trip out West, on both coasts.

Vic had an escort on her coastal transfer because the boat was undergoing some very important "warm water" trials.  It was also doing some ASW work with the escort. 

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

There was a bit more to it than that. There were some questions about just how successful the trials would be. Previous experience on the Oberons was not promising.

Submarines normally don't need escort vessels for trials, unless command thinks there's a significant chance of something going wrong.