Avro Arrow RL-206

[murray b]

Almost everything we read about the Avro Arrow today is a lie.  Soldiers deserve the truth, Eh!

Step one.  Diefenbaker was not behind the cancellation the military was.  This information is declassified and posted at http://www.international.gc.ca/department/history-histoire/dcer/details-en.asp?intRefid=8169

On  August 28, 1958 cabinet was advised, “Finally, the cost of the CF-105 programme as a whole was now of such a magnitude that the Chiefs of Staff felt that, to meet the modest requirement of manned aircraft presently considered advisable, it would be more economical to procure a fully developed interceptor of comparable performance in the U.S.”

How much did the aircraft cost at that time?  The price is clear, “The R.C.A.F. now had nine all-weather squadrons and the present programme called for their re-equipment with the CF-105, requiring a production order of 169 in number. These, together with aircraft recovered from the development and pre-production order for 37, would provide sufficient aircraft for nine squadrons. The total cost would be $2 billion spread from 1959-60 to 1963-64.”  That is nearly $10 million each compared to a Voodoo which was about $2 million.

So, to claim that the Arrow was something wonderful makes the old Chiefs of Staff look like idiots for not evaluating the aircraft properly or traitors for conspiring with Eisenhower to kill the program.  Were they either of these things?  Nope, the facts indicate that they made a sensible recommendation.

The Arrow was not all that fast at mach 1.89 for a specially prepared version.  At the time both the Lightning and Starfighter had exceeded mach 2 by a significant margin.  Nevertheless, the Arrow was fast enough to meet the specification which had been reduced to mach 1.5.  Since the Americans and British already produced much cheaper aircraft with comparable performance there was no absolutely no chance of export sales.

So why didn’t our military want the aircraft?  Well, clearly with a requirement for 206 of them they did not need just an interceptor.  The aircraft would have had to perform well in several roles and needed to have a range great enough to reach Europe via Keflavik.  Keflavik is 1312 nm from Goose Bay.  Even the lighter Arrow 2 could not be ferried that far.  In a memorandum signed W.W. Bean from 17 Jan 58 regarding the performance of the Arrow 2 “A reduction in ferry range to 1254 nm is not acceptable.”  [The estimate had to be reduced because the Avro 1 demonstrated far shorter range than Avro had predicted.]  The Voodoos that were purchased have a ferry range of over 1900 nm.

The Chiefs of staff did their duty and made a sensible recommendation based on technical and economic grounds. 

It should also be remembered that the Arrow was doomed even if the Liberals had won.  From the October 23, 1963 edition of the Montreal Star, “Gen. Charles Foulkes, chairman of the chiefs of staff committee from 1951 to 1960, testified yesterday that the Liberal Government of Prime Minister St. Laurent decided in 1957 it would cancel the Arrow interceptor program as soon as it was returned to power in that year’s election.”

So the military recommended cancelling a very expensive aircraft that did not meet their needs.  That is a fact that every Canadian should know and this is especially true for those serving in the military.

 

[gaspasser]

Still, she was a Canadian dream; engineered by Canadians, built in Canada by Canadians.  Can't see why we can't be extremely proud of that accomplishment.  I'm  proud to say that I'm impressed that it was those Canadians that put a man on the moon and came up with other great aircraft later in life.

        iper:

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Arrow was a significant technological achievement. Unfortunately, as murray b correctly states, buying it would have, effectively, destroyed the Canadian Army and most of the RCAF by about 1960. There would have been no money for essential new equipment and pay raises.

 

[murray b]

Still, she was a Canadian dream; engineered by Canadians, built in Canada by Canadians.  Can't see why we can't be extremely proud of that accomplishment.

Over the years lie has been piled upon lie until this reeking pile of poop has become higher than Mount Logan.  We should only be proud of what was actually achieved and not what was talked about.

Victory Aircraft was a Canadian company but it was purchased by Hawker-Siddeley after World War II.  Avro Canada was part of that British company.  Many of their senior people were British except for Crawford Gordon who was Canadian and had once been a protégé of the Liberal C.D. Howe.  The aircraft was, however, largely built by Canadians.

The destruction of the industry on the other hand was not caused by the Chiefs of Staff, anyone else in the military, or anyone in the Government for that matter.  It is covered pretty well in an excerpt from an article in the Montreal Star Feb. 24 1959, “The Prime Minister said the company had warning of the Government decision to cancel the CF-105 Arrow supersonic interceptor and knew that $50,000,000 in public funds had been set aside in the estimate for 1959-1960 to cover winding up expenses…”I say that its attitude in letting out thousands of workers – technical workers and employees – on Friday was so cavalier, so unreasonable, that the only conclusion any fair-minded person can come to is that it was done for the purpose of embarassing the goverment.”"

The lies cannot be allowed to continue because they make the military of the day look like idiots for killing an entire industry for no good reason and that is not even close to what actually happened. 

The Arrow was a significant technological achievement.

Actually the aircraft set no international performance records whatsoever and only became great after the fact through massive historical revision.  Just from the photographs it is clear even a civilian ‘computer guy’ like me that there are some obvious problems with the aircraft.  It seems clear that the Chiefs of Staff should have recommended cancellation even if the aircraft had cost only $3 million.
 
The heavily ribbed canopy would make for poor visibility which would limit the aircraft in roles other than interception.  Since the RCAF planned to buy 206 I presume they wanted them to perform other tasks.

The tailless delta planform is not correct for general purpose use and would also limit what the aircraft could be used for.

The long spindly main gear are obviously too weak for an aircraft with an empty weight exceeding 40,000 lbs.  They should be much heavier or some stout wheels coming out of the belly should have been added. 
Of course the absolute killer flaw for what was supposed to be a mach 2+ aircraft is the straight fuselage.  Avro was advised that the entire fuselage needed to be area ruled but for some reason they chose (according to the Mk. 1 brochure) to only apply the rule to the nose, inlets, and tail section.  They left most of the fuselage the way it was and this must have caused excessive drag at high speeds.  It is amusing that several lying weasels now claim the aircraft had a “wasp waist” when it obviously did not.  Fixing this problem would have required a complete redesign as Convair had done with the Delta Dagger to make the Delta Dart.  [The Douglas Stiletto had a similar problem with shape but they did not blame Canadians for their failure when it was cancelled.]

Just fixing the Arrow’s obvious flaws would have taken years and the RCAF needed the aircraft immediately.  Under those conditions I don’t see how the military could recommend continuing the program even if the aircraft had been much cheaper than it actually was.

The old Chiefs of Staff were correct in advising that the Arrow was “comparable” to other aircraft and not that it was the “best aircraft ever made” as so many people believe today.  Even if this was not clear from the records the military should still be given the benefit of the doubt unless there was extraordinary proof to the contrary.  [Fictional material from people wearing tin foil hats does not count as extraordinary proof.] 

 

[George Wallace]

.........  It is covered pretty well in an excerpt from an article in the Montreal Star Feb. 24 1959, “The Prime Minister said the company had warning of the Government decision to cancel the CF-105 Arrow supersonic interceptor and knew that $50,000,000 in public funds had been set aside in the estimate for 1959-1960 to cover winding up expenses…”I say that its attitude in letting out thousands of workers – technical workers and employees – on Friday was so cavalier, so unreasonable, that the only conclusion any fair-minded person can come to is that it was done for the purpose of embarassing the goverment.”"

Just curious: Do you lay as much credibility on articles published in the Press today?

The long spindly main gear are obviously too weak for an aircraft with an empty weight exceeding 40,000 lbs.  They should be much heavier or some stout wheels coming out of the belly should have been added. 

Seems the long spindly main gear was strong enough for the aircraft to conduct numerous test flights without failure; or are there some spectacular crashes that are being hidden from the public's eyes?

 

[George Wallace]

Almost everything we read about the Avro Arrow today is a lie.  Soldiers deserve the truth, Eh!

Step one.  Diefenbaker was not behind the cancellation the military was.  This information is declassified and posted at http://www.international.gc.ca/department/history-histoire/dcer/details-en.asp?intRefid=8169

On  August 28, 1958 cabinet was advised, “Finally, the cost of the CF-105 programme as a whole was now of such a magnitude that the Chiefs of Staff felt that, to meet the modest requirement of manned aircraft presently considered advisable, it would be more economical to procure a fully developed interceptor of comparable performance in the U.S.”

How much did the aircraft cost at that time?  The price is clear, “The R.C.A.F. now had nine all-weather squadrons and the present programme called for their re-equipment with the CF-105, requiring a production order of 169 in number. These, together with aircraft recovered from the development and pre-production order for 37, would provide sufficient aircraft for nine squadrons. The total cost would be $2 billion spread from 1959-60 to 1963-64.”  That is nearly $10 million each compared to a Voodoo which was about $2 million.

So, to claim that the Arrow was something wonderful makes the old Chiefs of Staff look like idiots for not evaluating the aircraft properly or traitors for conspiring with Eisenhower to kill the program.  Were they either of these things?  Nope, the facts indicate that they made a sensible recommendation.

The Arrow was not all that fast at mach 1.89 for a specially prepared version.  At the time both the Lightning and Starfighter had exceeded mach 2 by a significant margin.  Nevertheless, the Arrow was fast enough to meet the specification which had been reduced to mach 1.5.  Since the Americans and British already produced much cheaper aircraft with comparable performance there was no absolutely no chance of export sales.

So why didn’t our military want the aircraft?  Well, clearly with a requirement for 206 of them they did not need just an interceptor.  The aircraft would have had to perform well in several roles and needed to have a range great enough to reach Europe via Keflavik.  Keflavik is 1312 nm from Goose Bay.  Even the lighter Arrow 2 could not be ferried that far.  In a memorandum signed W.W. Bean from 17 Jan 58 regarding the performance of the Arrow 2 “A reduction in ferry range to 1254 nm is not acceptable.”  [The estimate had to be reduced because the Avro 1 demonstrated far shorter range than Avro had predicted.]  The Voodoos that were purchased have a ferry range of over 1900 nm.

The Chiefs of staff did their duty and made a sensible recommendation based on technical and economic grounds. 

It should also be remembered that the Arrow was doomed even if the Liberals had won.  From the October 23, 1963 edition of the Montreal Star, “Gen. Charles Foulkes, chairman of the chiefs of staff committee from 1951 to 1960, testified yesterday that the Liberal Government of Prime Minister St. Laurent decided in 1957 it would cancel the Arrow interceptor program as soon as it was returned to power in that year’s election.”

So the military recommended cancelling a very expensive aircraft that did not meet their needs.  That is a fact that every Canadian should know and this is especially true for those serving in the military.

Have you read any of the memoires of people who actually worked for A. V. Roe?  People like George Shaw who worked  at Avro Canada as a mechanical design engineer from early 1946 to mid 1960.

11 Nov 1958  Waldek "Spud" Potoki pilots RL203 to Mach 1.96, the fastest an Arrow flew.  This without the Orenda Iroquois engines. 

Test Flight info.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The lies cannot be allowed to continue because they make the military of the day look like idiots for killing an entire industry for no good reason and that is not even close to what actually happened. 

What, exactly, is your point?  More specifically, what is your point for presenting your argument here with the tone you are using, and while speaking to a group that is arguably recognizable supporters of the Canadian military throughout its past?

 

[Good2Golf]

Murray b, I find your comments about configuration interesting; good point on Whitcomb's Area Rule.

How is it that a tailless delta plan-form is not good for general use again?

- F102 Delta Dagger (1000+ built)
- F106 Delta Dart (350 built)
- Mirage III (1400+ built)
- Mirage V (580+ built)
- Mirage 2000 (600+ built)
- Rafale (~300 built)
- Gripen (213 built)
- Typhoon (200 built, ~500 on order)



One must take care not to swing t0o far to the other side of portrayal of past achievements or lack thereof, for fear of invalidation one's own position.

Regards
G2G

 

[murray b]

Have you read any of the memoires of people who actually worked for A. V. Roe?  People like George Shaw who worked  at Avro Canada as a mechanical design engineer from early 1946 to mid 1960.11 Nov 1958  Waldek "Spud" Potoki pilots RL203 to Mach 1.96, the fastest an Arrow flew.  This without the Orenda Iroquois engines.  Test Flight info.

Not many since they are not impartial sources for having worked for Avro.  Most employees of the company did not need to know the details of the highly classified aircraft and those that did could be making self-serving statements.

I did hear a voice recording where Mr. Potocki claimed to have gone up to mach 1.9 (which was apparently actually mach 1.89) but the mach 1.96 and 1.98 figures seem to be from more recent times.  What I can’t discover is the weight of that aircraft which was specially prepared for the flight or the engine thrust.  There is an indication that the engines were modified in some way but it is difficult to discover how.  Since the J75-P-3 used in the Arrow was rated at 24,000 lbt. with reheat (Mk.1 brochure) and the Orenda Iroquois was rated at 25,000 lbt. with reheat (Magellan R.O.I.) it should have been possible to increase the J-75 thrust by 4% by adjusting the limiter thingy on the engine.  Most jet engines can provide more than the rated thrust but at the cost of a reduction in life expectancy. 

Since I am a ‘computer guy’ and not an historian I actually began my reading with the computers that were the basis of the S.A.G.E. network.  Then I looked at the radars and the aircraft.  Finally I looked at the factual information about the events surrounding the Arrow.  Didn’t care that much about what Avro employees or any of the politicians were saying because they were not impartial and some were obviously lying. 

What, exactly, is your point?  More specifically, what is your point for presenting your argument here with the tone you are using, and while speaking to a group that is arguably recognizable supporters of the Canadian military throughout its past?

My point is that it is impossible to be an Arrow fanboy and a true supporter of the military at the same time.  Claiming the aircraft was wonderful automatically means that the Chiefs of Staff and the NAE and DRB gave Diefenbaker and his Cabinet bad advice about the aircraft.  This is the worst kind of military bashing because most of these people have passed away and can no longer defend themselves. 

My tone is subdued because there may be young people and ladies reading these posts.  When I use the term “lying weasels” what I really mean is “lying arse-weasel zealots that are putrid festering boils on Satan’s left buttock.”  Of course I would never write something like that in mixed company so I didn’t.

Murray b, I find your comments about configuration interesting; good point on Whitcomb's Area Rule.
How is it that a tilless delta planform is not good for general use again?

Thanks for pointing out my omission, Good2Golf.  Since I retired my mind has become like a steel trap, rusty and it squeeks sometimes.  Anyway what I should have said and have always said before is that a tailless delta without canards is not all that good for general purpose use.  The problem is that without a tail or canards in hard turns the air separates from the wing and the aircraft loses significant speed and altitude.  They kind of plow the air.  No matter what I think there is no changing the fact that N.A.C.A. told Avro not to use their proposed wing.  From “JOINT REPORT ON AN RCAF-DRB-NAE VISIT to N.A.C.A.  LANGLEY LABORATORIES TO DISCUSS AERODYNAMIC PROBLEMS OF AVRO CF-105 AIRCRAFT – 19 NOVEMBER 1954”
Summary part (d) “The high drag due to lift associated with low aspect ratio delta wings makes them poor planforms for high endurance and long range.”

Actually the N.A.C.A. report summary is great reading for anyone that wants to know the facts about the Arrow.  It absolutely vindicates the DRB, NAE, and military for trying to cancel the thing in ’53.  N.A.C.A. even told Avro not to use their hybrid analogue vacuum tube/transistor fly-by-wire system.  “(i) All steps should be taken to ensure aerodynamic stability before resorting to electronic means.”  It is not clear why N.A.C.A. said this but those transistors would have been real vulnerable to the EMP from a nuclear blast.  If the Soviets knew about EMP at the time they must have just wet themselves laughing at the Arrow.  Give an Arrow a Genie and it should be able shoot down every airborne Arrow down simultaneously.  [I expect that unshielded transistors were also the real reason why the USN repurposed the Vigilante from nuclear attack to recon.]  Honestly, the more facts about the Arrow I learn the less I like the aircraft. 

 

[HelmetHead99]

Just throwing this out there...

I got talking planes, trains and automobiles with an old fellow out Picton, ON way last year, who, without any coaching, related that he was often called to a farm nearby to do various odd jobs. The farm was/is owned by a former A V Roe employee, quite high up, who was recruited to the States after the shutdown to continue research there (California) on US projects etc.

A certain barn was always made "off limits" to him (the old fellow) and he felt that the barn may have contained pieces, plans or a whole Arrow. The former Avro exec made visits back to the family farm and when asked directly if an Arrow was in the mysterious barn, did not confirm or deny, only smiled coyly and left it at that. The old fellow felt that the Avro exec was staying mum till he died for fear of legal trouble in the event he had somehow squired the jet or parts away.

Interestingly, research using Arrow models was done in the area and there is a military airport there as well (Mountainview) though I'm not sure its strips could have accommodated the Arrow.

As a side-note... as I was driving to my cottage near Mountainview around the same time, I was astonished to see streaking across my windshield, an Arrow at speed. I can tell you, I was pretty weirded out as this apparition went vertical and spiraled out of view. It took me a minute to realize that it was a jet powered  scale model being flown by enthusiasts at Mountainview. I pulled off the road and entered the base and spent a few hours watching these amazing creations fly.

 

[Loachman]

The former Avro exec made visits back to the family farm and when asked directly if an Arrow was in the mysterious barn, did not confirm or deny, only smiled coyly and left it at that.

I've got one in my basement, but I had to shorten it a bit.

Don't tell anybody though.

 

[murray b]

Just throwing this out there... The former Avro exec made visits back to the family farm and when asked directly if an Arrow was in the mysterious barn, did not confirm or deny, only smiled coyly and left it at that.

The location of the “missing” aircraft has been “established” by Chimo:  [Note that Elvis was confirmed as an alien in a documentary on the MIB (AFSAC?).]

Yeah I saw Elvis in it last time I was in Vegas.

 

The location is “confirmed” by PuckChaser: [Note that Groom Lake is near Vegas.]

We all know the Americans stole a prototype and store it at Groom Lake to make their fighters with like they did with Megatron in Transformers.

Why these guys would violate OPSEC like this I will never know but they are completely correct.  Of course as a civilian OPSEC does not apply to me, so anyway.

First consider the statements of Paul Hellyer, the MND that saved all that money by giving everybody in the military the same coloured uniform.  From CTV news, “Former federal defence minister Paul Hellyer, 86, believes not only that aliens have visited Earth but also that they have contributed greatly to human technological advances.” See <http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20100502/stephen-hawking-aliens-canada-100502/>

Now consider the slip the CAF made a couple of years ago when they revealed on their official website that the Arrow flew at mach 1.96 and 1650 mph.  At what altitude does mach 1.96 = 1650 mph?  It is about 31,000 ft. BELOW sea level!  This is solid proof that we had a working Oscillation Overthruster at least a decade before the Japanese American Dr. Banzai claims to have invented it.  The OO covered in a documentary about Dr. Banzai that was released a few years ago.

Flying across the eighth dimension would have allowed the Arrow to attack any target from beneath the ground and remain completely invulnerable, just like Superman.  Eisenhower could not stand for this and threatened to nuke Canada unless we gave up the Arrows which was obviously the bestest airplane ever made in the history of the universe.  There is little doubt that the C.I.A. took the last one to Area 51, Groom Lake Facility, 99th Air Base Wing [but run by AFFTC], Nellis Air Force Base,  near Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.A.  There is also little doubt that it could have been flown by Elvis since he was often seen by a multitude of eye witnesses as being in the Las Vegas area. 

Now that I have established that I have just as much imagination as any Arrow zealot can I have some government money too?  Please Sir, Please!  Just a paltry few million so I can make it all into a movie with real movie stars and everything.

 

[a_majoor]

There is a project out there which is seeking to recover Avro Arrow parts which were set aside but not scrapped or destroyed over the years through corrosion, neglect etc. I doubt they will find enough to knit an Arrow together, but this will be an interesting trove of artifacts. One thing they are looking for is scale model Arrows shot by rocket to test the high speed characteristics of the machine in flight. I believe they would have landed in Lake Ontario (being closest to the A.V. Roe facility), but this is just a guess on my part.

Maybe the reclusive AVRO executive had smuggled some small pieces out and stashed them in the barn (or maybe his escape stash of gold Krugerrands was hidden in there!). It is hard to see how something as huge as an Arrow cold have been towed along lonely back roads and into a barn without someone noticing. Of course, the barn itself would have had to be the size of a hanger in order to store the Arrow without cutting it to bite sized pieces.

I'll go for the stash of gold myself!

 

[Old Sweat]

DND had a range on the south side of Prince Edward County firing out into Lake Ontario. While it was largely used by the Royal Canadian School of Artillery (Anti-Aircraft) and 1 Light Anti-Aircaft Regiment from Camp Picton, it was used to fire model Arrows for whatever reason.

 

[vonGarvin]

DND had a range on the south side of Prince Edward County firing out into Lake Ontario. While it was largely used by the Royal Canadian School of Artillery (Anti-Aircraft) and 1 Light Anti-Aircaft Regiment from Camp Picton, it was used to fire model Arrows for whatever reason.

As a member of The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment, I trained there often at Point Petre.  I believe that DND maintains a small presence down there with some sort of radio tower.

 

[Strike]

DND had a range on the south side of Prince Edward County firing out into Lake Ontario. While it was largely used by the Royal Canadian School of Artillery (Anti-Aircraft) and 1 Light Anti-Aircaft Regiment from Camp Picton, it was used to fire model Arrows for whatever reason.

There have been dives off that site with the intentions of locating some of these models.  No luck though.  Go figure.  The models would be so covered in silt and zebra mussels they'd be near impossible to locate, even with the proper metal-detecting equipment.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Arrow Recovery Canada
http://www.avroarrow.org/ARC/index.html

 

[Sporadic E]

The guy who was trying to gather all the Arrow parts to build a "new" Arrow was Peter Zuuring. He put out a series of books all based on pictures he stole from National Archives to raise funds for his little operation. It turned out that he was a total fraud. He was even a guest speaker at a mess dinner in Cold Lake. I'm glad not many people bought into his tripe.

 

[George Wallace]

I would be interested to know how he "stole" pictures from the National Archives.  A fairly hard thing to do if you have ever been there.  It is not like they are just laying around for anyone to look at.

 

[Sporadic E]

Well, not stole. However, he did copy them and use them for a profit claiming that they were his.