Attempted assassination of Donald Trump 13 July 2024

[Haggis]

Another consideration is that each time you change carry techniques (duty belt/plainclothes belt holster/thigh holster/shoulder holster/concealment holster) there is a training bill and muscle memory to develop, not only for drawing and holstering but also for reloads, stoppages and transitions. I've trained on each one quite a bit with the exception of shoulder holsters, which my agency doesn't use and are not permitted in IPSC or IDPA.

 

[RedFive]

I was surprised you were using Lvl IV plates, but that's a good thing.

Nobody overdoes something like the RCMP when their pp gets smacked.

There are lighter plates available, but the fact of the matter is every car is supposed to have a set of plates (where I'm at they do) but members rarely wear them for any one of a variety of reasons and NCO's don't enforce it because they're not wearing them either.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Shoulder holsters tend to be floppy, and they also put your gun potentially more in view and definitely in reach for an attempted gun grab. View wise, they’re closer to eye level and more likely to be noticed if your jacket flaps open. Because they aren’t really anchored to you, it’s harder to incorporate retention mechanisms that will help keep the gun in place either against a drop or a grab. It also means a longer and slower movement for the draw- across the body, and probably sweeping a later arc with a loaded firearm to reach your target. Because the shoulder holster will be hanging and moving at least a bit, it could be less predictable where, exactly, the grip of the gun is to be found. A proper belt holster on a stiff leather belt mounts the gun solidly and predictably in one place, gives the shortest and most direct draw path where you shouldn’t lose anyone between you and the target, and because the holster is pretty much fixed static you have a reliable ability to disengage retention mechanisms, usually activated with your thumb. Also, with a belt holster, I can put my badge directly beside it and closer to my belt buckle so that anyone who does get a glimpse of my gun should also see my badge. In Canada at least that helps reduce people getting freaked out.

There might be occasions where a shoulder holster is more comfortable, but that’s about the only advantage I could think of. If true concealability (versus simply being discreet) is the priority, there are better options than shoulder holster.

When I worked downtown I occasionally catch a glimpse of a guy carrying a gun. My rule of thumb was if it was in a holster, they were likely a cop. Only saw one without and called it in, they never showed up so I am assuming it was one of their guys. Couple of times I had to quietly mention to a undercover cop that their gun was showing, they appreciated it. Also had to mention to a Sheriff in Tim Hortons that his mag was not seated properly.

 

[Booter]

Nobody overdoes something like the RCMP when their pp gets smacked.

There are lighter plates available, but the fact of the matter is every car is supposed to have a set of plates (where I'm at they do) but members rarely wear them for any one of a variety of reasons and NCO's don't enforce it because they're not wearing them either.

LWHBA has started its rollout in pockets. Much better

 

[The Bread Guy]

I guess it's never too soon after any event for dank memes or merch ....

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT High-Tops

STRICT LIMIT OF 3 PAIRS PER CUSTOMER!Introducing the FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT High-Tops. On July 13, 2024, an assassination attempt was made on President Trump at a rally in Butler, PA. Despite the attack, Trump stood tall and resilient, leading the crowd with the powerful chant "Fight, Fight, Fight."...

gettrumpsneakers.com

Key disclaimer:

 

[lenaitch]

In general. The Americans have been sliding towards police militarization for years. Problem being American cops aren't gendarmes, this have no business having paramilitary function or form. There's a profound culture difference between militaries and police forces and neither should try to be the other. These American cops sliding towards increased militarism has effects on mindset, which should be that not everyone is a threat and that they must serve and protect whilst minimizing loss of life, not Charlie take the trench.

I'm a community policing beat cop with a distinct uniform and a service sidearm kinda guy. Not tac gear for everyone with AR15s all around. I don't trust police officers with the latter. The simply aren't trained enough unless they're SWAT tasked and especially with the 4 weeks of training cops all too common in the USA.

I was a little confused as to whether your concern was role or appearance. Since others have responded, I'll leave the discussion as is. I understand what you are saying though. For a while in my former service there was quite a lobby group pushing for bloused tac pants as general service dress. Heck, I don't even like the look of external body armour but understand why it has become necessary.

I remember semi-serious discussion back in the '70s, when 'community policing' became all the rage and expert were oozing out of universities, that the uniform should be slacks and a blazer.

Shoulder holsters tend to be floppy, and they also put your gun potentially more in view and definitely in reach for an attempted gun grab. View wise, they’re closer to eye level and more likely to be noticed if your jacket flaps open. Because they aren’t really anchored to you, it’s harder to incorporate retention mechanisms that will help keep the gun in place either against a drop or a grab. It also means a longer and slower movement for the draw- across the body, and probably sweeping a later arc with a loaded firearm to reach your target. Because the shoulder holster will be hanging and moving at least a bit, it could be less predictable where, exactly, the grip of the gun is to be found. A proper belt holster on a stiff leather belt mounts the gun solidly and predictably in one place, gives the shortest and most direct draw path where you shouldn’t lose anyone between you and the target, and because the holster is pretty much fixed static you have a reliable ability to disengage retention mechanisms, usually activated with your thumb. Also, with a belt holster, I can put my badge directly beside it and closer to my belt buckle so that anyone who does get a glimpse of my gun should also see my badge. In Canada at least that helps reduce people getting freaked out.

There might be occasions where a shoulder holster is more comfortable, but that’s about the only advantage I could think of. If true concealability (versus simply being discreet) is the priority, there are better options than shoulder holster.

And all of those reasons are why they are not approved for use by Ontario police services. I had one back in the day of snub-nose revolvers and your are correct - the weapon just sort of bangs around in there.

^^
Last question. How the hell do you keep your pants up with all that weight on the belt without wearing suspenders?
During Op Apollo my boarding gear included the utility belt and I hated the bloody thing with a passion and lobbied for us to get the old H harnesses to get the weight off my hips. Didn’t help that I never had a V shape!

As Brihard mentions, the availability of stronger belts that actually look decent with a suit has improved things. It's not just the weapon; although that is a big part of it. It's all the other UoF and comms. During my normal plain clothes work day, I would carry the weapon, a single mag and handcuffs. Everything else was in the bag (we didn't get issued portable comms). Not really policy but there ya go. But for scenarios like we have been discussing (close protection, high risk, etc.) ya gotta carry it all. I wore suspenders. It was really the only way to keep my pants on and not get a sore back. Using a public washroom was an exercise in discreet gymnastics.

It was easier in the days when I first started doing plain clothes work. We were allowed to carry semi-autos when the rest of the Service were still in revolvers and the one we had were sweet, compact weapons. When they switched to s/a Service-wide, we had to turn them for Sigs, which were heavy and bulky, made worse by the mandated holsters. I don't know how it is now with the new Glock issue.

 

[lenaitch]

Another consideration is that each time you change carry techniques (duty belt/plainclothes belt holster/thigh holster/shoulder holster/concealment holster) there is a training bill and muscle memory to develop, not only for drawing and holstering but also for reloads, stoppages and transitions. I've trained on each one quite a bit with the exception of shoulder holsters, which my agency doesn't use and are not permitted in IPSC or IDPA.

Several years ago my former service dropped the leather Sam Browne kit with the dress uniform (long tunic) and went to a simple cloth belt. There was some discussion about going back because so members were concerned about being unarmed on parade, etc. The key problem cited was, as you say, training transition between the two carry styles.

 

[Jarnhamar]

LWHBA has started its rollout in pockets. Much better

What's that?

 

[brihard]

What's that?

Lightweight hard body armour. Plates that are less than a real 4, but protect against the realistic threats and weigh 1/4 or less of the ceramic.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Lightweight hard body armour. Plates that are less than a real 4, but protect against the realistic threats and weigh 1/4 or less of the ceramic.

Thanks. Are police allowed to buy and use their own (if they want additional protection)?

 

[brihard]

Thanks. Are police allowed to buy and use their own (if they want additional protection)?

I doubt anywhere has policies that endorse it. But we all know some members who have. This late inserts to bump your level II soft armour to a level IIIa is popular, though usually you need to buy a custom carrier for your existing soft panels. I don’t have my own hard plates since we had them in our cars, but I did buy a helmet back when I was still on the road.

 

[KevinB]

I doubt anywhere has policies that endorse it. But we all know some members who have. This late inserts to bump your level II soft armour to a level IIIa is popular, though usually you need to buy a custom carrier for your existing soft panels. I don’t have my own hard plates since we had them in our cars, but I did buy a helmet back when I was still on the road.

I was about to offer you a set of plates (I have some spares ) but then I remembered the border…


WRT shoulder holsters, there are only two things I’ve seen them practical for;
1) is folks up in turrets - and then it’s more of a chest holster anyway.
2) Walking to the shower overseas wearing only your towel and flip flops , with pistol in the shoulder holster

 

[Booter]

I did buy a helmet back when I was still on the road.

Sucker. I was given one as a kid

 

[brihard]

Sucker. I was given one as a kid

Kevlar’s like wool socks, it just gets stronger.

I was about to offer you a set of plates (I have some spares ) but then I remembered the border…

Hah, wouldn’t have said no but I have no clue how CBSA sees those.

 

[Good2Golf]

2) Walking to the shower overseas wearing only your towel and flip flops , with pistol in the shoulder holster

Like the cool dude you and I mutually know…last time we saw him in AFG.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Kevlar’s like wool socks, it just gets stronger.



Hah, wouldn’t have said no but I have no clue how CBSA sees those.

ITAR item.

There's plenty of choices for sale in Ontario though. If you're interested. My IVs are steel and heavy and I have to put a pad in front for fragmentation. I may look at getting them coated. My ceramic ones, IIIa, nij standard are pretty nice though, but I worry about back face deformation with those.

 

[Swampbuggy]

It really isn't that bad, the first 3-5 years are done at a Fed Prison, moving inmates etc. Then one generally gets assigned a region, and one can stay in a region for a while, the Marshal I had running our Violent Fugitive Recovery Team had been at his "desk" for ten years, some folks have also managed some instructor billets for a while -- generally the SOG is the most road warrior part - and some of those guys never leave Louisiana. If you like the MD/VA/DC area, you can pretty much stay here as long as you want, as there are a variety of different field jobs, as well as true office jobs.

I can only say when he finished up, he went back home to Southern Mississippi and has zero desire to ever go anywhere again. He does some firearms instructor stuff down there, but only as a private citizen in a club.

 

[RedFive]

LWHBA has started its rollout in pockets. Much better

I've seen one set. Regrettably, still in that god awful carrier that refuses to stay put and renders the plate nearly useless by falling out of position even when sized and worn properly.

 

[KevinB]

ITAR item.

Due to his job, they could be exported to him with an end user, but the price of individual export is fairly high to make it somewhat unreasonable.

There's plenty of choices for sale in Ontario though. If you're interested. My IVs are steel and heavy and I have to put a pad in front for fragmentation. I may look at getting them coated. My ceramic ones, IIIa, nij standard are pretty nice though, but I worry about back face deformation with those.

Assuming you would wear soft armor under the IIIa I wouldn’t worry too much about BFD - you’re going to get bruised if hit by rifle fire.

Biggest issue with ceramic only plates is they crack with impacts - so they should get X-Ray’d every 6 months of operational usage. A lot of higher end plates are now basically portable versions of chobham armor and sandwiches layers of ceramic and metal (usually Ti)

 

[brihard]

Due to his job, they could be exported to him with an end user, but the price of individual export is fairly high to make it somewhat unreasonable.

Assuming you would wear soft armor under the IIIa I wouldn’t worry too much about BFD - you’re going to get bruised if hit by rifle fire.

Biggest issue with ceramic only plates is they crack with impacts - so they should get X-Ray’d every 6 months of operational usage. A lot of higher end plates are now basically portable versions of chobham armor and sandwiches layers of ceramic and metal (usually Ti)

Police departments will throw them in a car and grudgingly buy new ones eight years later.