Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[buzgo]

$60k a year or $90/100? With the same amount of holidays, comparable if not better pension plans with more option and more control over the financial amount you put in, and where it gets invested,
RESPECT for your abilities,

The EXACT people they need to get this ACISS Idea up and running, the experience, knowledge and ability to implement the changes they desire, they are the ones taking their leave and walking away. You have to find ways to make people happy, there are options, technological dependant society, these skill sets are actively looked for via head hunting companies. I am more then happy in my current job being able to work from home 4 days a week(as long as I have an internet connection) and I still get telephone and emails from companies trying to hire me or coax me to moving on with them.

There are always going to be people that want to be in the military for intangible reasons, whether its answering a calling, patriotism or some altruistic reasons. That being said, you are correct - we are badly failing at coming up with strategies to keep our people engaged and to provide them with interesting and fulfilling career paths.

We really are working on this but it is a constant slog against stovepiped approaches, bureaucracy, training systems and just sheer inertia and malaise within ACISS.

 

[Sig_Des]

There are always going to be people that want to be in the military for intangible reasons, whether its answering a calling, patriotism or some altruistic reasons. That being said, you are correct - we are badly failing at coming up with strategies to keep our people engaged and to provide them with interesting and fulfilling career paths.

We really are working on this but it is a constant slog against stovepiped approaches, bureaucracy, training systems and just sheer inertia and malaise within ACISS.

I know we shouldn't use money as an incentive, but it is one of the most tangible ways to appeal to people. Money can equal stability, which can very much be a factor for people when deciding on what they're doing with their life. I prefer job satisfaction and security coupled with a sense of professional pride, but we live in a material world.

ACISS has recently been approved for a recruiting allowance, but I'm not a big fan ( I'll never say no to extra money, and did in fact receive a signing bonus with a skilled transfer to the Reg F). We have 2 issues. Recruiting AND retention. I believe retention is the bigger issue. A recruiting allowance gets people in the door, but does nothing for retention past the 4 year term someone is locked in. We need to look at ways to make people stay in. Making people happy with what they're doing and where they are is obviously the best way to do it.

However, I've personally always liked the idea of the US Military's reenlistment bonus. Interesting read here:

http://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1243&context=up_workingpapers

Compensation packages are necessary to recruit and retain workers with the skills
required to perform an employer’s function. Firms compete within the broader labor market not
only to recruit new workers, but also to keep their own skilled labor force. To the extent that any
training provided to employees develops general human capital, a firm must pay to retain the
talent that it helped to create. These compensation packages may include salaries offered to
individuals based on their skills, signing bonuses, and performance-based raises and bonuses.

If we're going to start acting like the corporate world when it comes to management and political correctness training, we should also start looking at corporate style retention strategies. Because that's who we're competing with when it comes to hiring and retaining smart, trained and motivated employees.

 

[upandatom]

The RCCS needs to have a serious look at what we actually need people to do. Sure, we think we need to have people qualified up to industry standards, but do we really need this? Can we actually achieve this? Do you know how long it takes to make these people? I'm tracking 2 - 3 year college programs for Electronics and IT technologists, 4 years in university for EE / CS degrees. We could put them through SEP or recruit them from the colleges: did you ever work with any of the LCIS techs produced through the St. Lawrence College pipeline? Like everyone else, pretty hit or miss. They all showed up as Cpls with zero experience.

Face it, the CAF needs to operate as an international company, the amount of employees, requirement for instant communication in a broad manner of mediums is required.
Difference is, they have to deal with it with stress, very strict possible life or death timelines.
Of Course you need industry standard, and no way should you be accepting less like you have been, I can name names, but that is not the purpose of this. If you start selling yourself short, you are going to end up hurting sooner the later.

The SEP Program was a waste of money and time, members that were not SEP were much better off knowledge and DDD wise then their SEP counterparts, and it showed when it came to Career courses later on.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

I know we shouldn't use money as an incentive, but it is one of the most tangible ways to appeal to people. Money can equal stability, which can very much be a factor for people when deciding on what they're doing with their life. I prefer job satisfaction and security coupled with a sense of professional pride, but we live in a material world.

I get this is a go-to feel-good line, and maybe some show up excited every morning to serve queen and country but fact is, in my job I've lost a good few of my smartest people to public service and private contractors mainly due to money and post stability (they had spouses with high paying jobs that wouldn't benefit well from frequent postings to places like Gagetown).

Extra money and more care and thought by the CM would go a long way to retaining QUALITY people, because I can guarantee you it's not my worst performers that get attractive offers outside the forces.

 

[PuckChaser]

I get this is a go-to feel-good line, and maybe some show up excited every morning to serve queen and country but fact is, in my job I've lost a good few of my smartest people to public service and private contractors mainly due to money and post stability (they had spouses with high paying jobs that wouldn't benefit well from frequent postings to places like Gagetown).

Extra money and more care and thought by the CM would go a long way to retaining QUALITY people, because I can guarantee you it's not my worst performers that get attractive offers outside the forces.

Here's the problem: You have to be willing to move. If the member has a spouse with a high paying job, and thinks they can spend 20 years in the same location while being promoted with their peers, that's not the kind of member that's either going to stay in, or worth retaining. There's a fine line to walk between posting someone every 5 years just because you can, to completely unrelated jobs, and keeping someone in the same location for their whole career (same unit in some extreme cases). We absolutely can do a better job at managing pers and their postings; taking MCpl Server Det IC from 2 Sigs and moving them to 1 Sigs in the same job with no promotion is not career progression, you're just wasting money.

I hear it a lot, "I can't move, my wife makes more money than me." If you're that set on not moving around, release and join the reserves, or go to the private sector. Yeah, you'll lose some good people, but those good people are concerned with only their needs, not supporting the team (CAF/Army/Sigs/etc), so I'd argue they're not the right kind of "good" that we want. Everyone has to take a turn at a crappy posting once and a while, or perhaps the CM shop should start listening to pers who volunteer to go to those "undesirable" places. There are people will to take that Wainwright, Shilo, etc posting, because they have family there or liked the area. Let them. If it slows their succession planning, advise the member and let it happen. Not everyone is going to be a RSM someday, and posting people at the Cpl/MCpl level assuming they'll make it that far is really what screws the whole system up.

 

[c_canuk]

I'm sick of hearing, "They shouldn't be joining for money, they should be joining to serve Queen and country, for Esprit de corps, and to make the world a better place"

It's crap. Those are the people we're losing. All those ideals die the moment the realities of the trade become apparent.

When it's 5 years into the MES roll out and the head shed is still arguing what each sub occ's job AOR is, when things like Berets and Collar dogs are featured as items getting head shed attention while careers and pay have been frozen (optics), when the training system has shit the bed; those ideals die.

If you want a corps of switched on hard chargers who aren't interested in comparable pay, they need a structure to allow them to work efficiently and to have meaningful work with clear objectives and accomplishments. This is a two way street. Hard chargers expect to be lead by other hard chargers, not faceless grey managers who seem to never accomplish anything and speak like politicians.

We don't have what we need to retain large numbers of those people. Based on the people we have running the trade, we'll never have it. So what do we have... Spec pay maybe. To attract those who will work in these conditions.

You want people to work in a situation that kills morale, you'd better find a way to keep them coming in  everyday. If you can't fix the soul crushing inaction on solving high level problems within the trade, you need to face reality and understand that you need to attract someone who can get the job done. When we're less than 50% manned, why they get the job done is pointless navel gazing. We don't have the luxury.

Those willing to tuff it out, and get the job done for good pay are what we can rely on at the moment. Reward them for their loyalty. You fight with the army you have, not the one you wish you had.

But that's just my opinion from working with switched on troops, and watching their morale slowly fade as their frustration ramps up, as they take a posting where their spouse loses their well paying job, and can barely scrape by on a single income, or their family falling apart while on IR.

 

[PuckChaser]

We get paid well, in the standard pay group. If enough positions/tasks align with higher public service/private sector comparables, you move to Specialist Pay. You also can't put a monetary value on ironclad job security, decent pension, leave packages, etc.

You're not going to fix crushing morale by throwing money at people. You're going to fix it by having competent leadership who look out for their troops and take care of them, but also demand a high level of work when required. The infantry is flooded with applications right now, and they're sweeping bay floors when not on MAPLE RESOLVE.

IR is almost always a personal choice (unless your house can't sell in a depressed market). If someone's family is falling apart because of it, that member needs to request a compassionate posting and sort it out.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Here's the problem: You have to be willing to move. If the member has a spouse with a high paying job, and thinks they can spend 20 years in the same location while being promoted with their peers, that's not the kind of member that's either going to stay in, or worth retaining. There's a fine line to walk between posting someone every 5 years just because you can, to completely unrelated jobs, and keeping someone in the same location for their whole career (same unit in some extreme cases). We absolutely can do a better job at managing pers and their postings; taking MCpl Server Det IC from 2 Sigs and moving them to 1 Sigs in the same job with no promotion is not career progression, you're just wasting money.

I hear it a lot, "I can't move, my wife makes more money than me." If you're that set on not moving around, release and join the reserves, or go to the private sector. Yeah, you'll lose some good people, but those good people are concerned with only their needs, not supporting the team (CAF/Army/Sigs/etc), so I'd argue they're not the right kind of "good" that we want. Everyone has to take a turn at a crappy posting once and a while, or perhaps the CM shop should start listening to pers who volunteer to go to those "undesirable" places. There are people will to take that Wainwright, Shilo, etc posting, because they have family there or liked the area. Let them. If it slows their succession planning, advise the member and let it happen. Not everyone is going to be a RSM someday, and posting people at the Cpl/MCpl level assuming they'll make it that far is really what screws the whole system up.

Shouldn't be too hard to keep people in the same area though. The spouse income issue is something that is only going to get more and more significant as things like dual incomes become a stronger and stronger trend.
If someone wants to stay in Petawawa or Edmonton, there's no reason why they can't make that happen. We all know our CMs though will purposefully move someone into something distasteful just for suggesting that your family would benefit from something.
I like my job and think I do it well, but if I were to be posted somewhere like Cold Lake or somewhere out in the middle of nowhere it certainly wouldn't make financial sense for me to stay in and I'd likely leave. That's not me being salty, that's me being rational. It wouldn't be fair to me to force my wife to give up her career unless there's a significant career advantage for me. She'll likely be making more than me in a couple of years.

That's not just an ACISS problem, though we tend to have more movement and weird postings than say, a combat arms that may remain in the same unit for the majority of their career.

 

[c_canuk]

We get paid well, in the standard pay group. If enough positions/tasks align with higher public service/private sector comparables, you move to Specialist Pay. You also can't put a monetary value on ironclad job security, decent pension, leave packages, etc.

You're not going to fix crushing morale by throwing money at people. You're going to fix it by having competent leadership who look out for their troops and take care of them, but also demand a high level of work when required. The infantry is flooded with applications right now, and they're sweeping bay floors when not on MAPLE RESOLVE.

IR is almost always a personal choice (unless your house can't sell in a depressed market). If someone's family is falling apart because of it, that member needs to request a compassionate posting and sort it out.

I disagree.

We aren't going to fix our organizational problems by hoping to fill our ranks with hard chargers who will eventually fix our culture issues. They won't stay long enough to get to a position of change.

So who can we get? Shit pumps who have nothing better or people willing to tuff it out for better pay. Better pay is not meant to fix crushing morale problems, it's meant to keep the good workers when there are better alternatives available. It's a lot easier to work in a job where there are no clear lines of fire, and politics is rampant when you come home to a very well provided for family. Little less when you're a MCpl or Cpl posted in Ottawa, Frozen pay, no PLD, 2 hour round trip commute etc etc. Especially since your civy equivalent is making a lot more in the local area.

In the private sector pay and compensation will attract better employees to a less than ideal situation. Google can pay their techs less than the industry standard because they have an awesome work environment. MS has to pay more because they don't.

Why people, who have the skills we need, come to work for us is an academic thought exercise at best. Why is irrelevant. We need skilled people who will get the job done. Over time, people who consistently get the job done in a professional manner and take pride in their work is what we need. Whether they do it for pay and benefits or for altruistic reasons is irrelevant.

Besides, I think the people joining Comms to feed the orphans and directly defend the flag is a very limited pool. The opportunities for that sort of work in our trade is almost non existent.

As for putting a monetary value on job security/pension/leave packages... you certainly can, and many are hence our distinct lack of retention. People think they can get a better deal in the private sector, and not many are coming back. Seems to me that is a strong indicator that they are correct.

That said, we're very unlikely to get spec pay, so this is all just speculation. You are right, we need to fix our trade's cultural issues. But it's going to be a long hard battle for at least a decade so we have to do something about retention now.. I don't know if our society is going to support something like that either. Look at Phoenix and SSC. We don't seem capable of making large successful changes as a people anymore. We're mired in bureaucracy at all levels of government, and I don't see that improving anytime soon.

 

[upandatom]

We get paid well, in the standard pay group. If enough positions/tasks align with higher public service/private sector comparables, you move to Specialist Pay. You also can't put a monetary value on ironclad job security, decent pension, leave packages, etc.

You're not going to fix crushing morale by throwing money at people. You're going to fix it by having competent leadership who look out for their troops and take care of them, but also demand a high level of work when required. The infantry is flooded with applications right now, and they're sweeping bay floors when not on MAPLE RESOLVE.

IR is almost always a personal choice (unless your house can't sell in a depressed market). If someone's family is falling apart because of it, that member needs to request a compassionate posting and sort it out.

You do not get paid well. I will call that out right here. 
Even with Field Pay, I actually just was able to get a Network type Sig Op hired at my company for 15k more a year then they were making, with 15 days off(in reality, I probably run 25-30 days off a year). We have a superior retirement package, that we can access earlier, and we choose how much we put in, and how much we get out.

The problem is, even with Spec pay, its still not enough for the industry standard. Whoever says that it is, is wrong, or running off 10-15 year old data. Tech jobs, server admin, electronic repair, and infrastructure installation (Lineman) are making 10-15 K a year more at a minimum (I started 10 above, and through a promotion am now 25 above what I was making)

You can no longer use stability as a reference, Stability means you will know what you get or better and for how long, not you know you are getting $X a year, until some one decides to pad their PER with some scheme to reinvent the wheel.

And last but not least, respect. Troops now are not feeling any respect at all,
Respect your Subordinates, they will respect their superiors.

 

[George Wallace]

You do not get paid well. I will call that out right here. 
Even with Field Pay, I actually just was able to get a Network type Sig Op hired at my company for 15k more a year then they were making, with 15 days off(in reality, I probably run 25-30 days off a year). We have a superior retirement package, that we can access earlier, and we choose how much we put in, and how much we get out.

The problem is, even with Spec pay, its still not enough for the industry standard. Whoever says that it is, is wrong, or running off 10-15 year old data. Tech jobs, server admin, electronic repair, and infrastructure installation (Lineman) are making 10-15 K a year more at a minimum (I started 10 above, and through a promotion am now 25 above what I was making)

You can no longer use stability as a reference, Stability means you will know what you get or better and for how long, not you know you are getting $X a year, until some one decides to pad their PER with some scheme to reinvent the wheel.

And last but not least, respect. Troops now are not feeling any respect at all,
Respect your Subordinates, they will respect their superiors.

You do realize that you can apply "your complaint" to every Trade in the CAF that has Journeyman status, or similar, on civilian street.  Compare what a CAF plumber makes with what a plumber makes on civilian street.  What about those Refrigeration Techs, or those various electrical related Trades?  How about what a MP makes compared to a police officer in a civilian job?  Firefighers?  Where would you like to stop these comparisons?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

You do realize that you can apply "your complaint" to every Trade in the CAF that has Journeyman status, or similar, on civilian street.  Compare what a CAF plumber makes with what a plumber makes on civilian street.  What about those Refrigeration Techs, or those various electrical related Trades? How about what a MP makes compared to a police officer in a civilian job?  Firefighers?  Where would you like to stop these comparisons?

I would like to point out that MPs have an identified retention issue and were given SPEC 1 pay to eleviate the brain drain they were suffering with folks pulling pin after 5 years.

This is what ACISS hopes to accomplish, rather than seeing our best and brightests leave and our trade remain far below PML because its "fair" to other trades in the CAF.

 

[mariomike]

You do realize that you can apply "your complaint" to every Trade in the CAF that has Journeyman status, or similar, on civilian street.   

Judging by our 36-page Getting Back In mega-thread, the grass is not always greener on civilian street.

Thankfully, the CAF lets former members back in. Not all employers do.

 

[PuckChaser]

I would like to point out that MPs have an identified retention issue and were given SPEC 1 pay to eleviate the brain drain they were suffering with folks pulling pin after 5 years.

This is what ACISS hopes to accomplish, rather than seeing our best and brightests leave and our trade remain far below PML because its "fair" to other trades in the CAF.

I'm not sure they still have that retention issue, if they can't laterally transfer to RCMP or a civvie force without training, they shouldn't get spec pay. 291ers were also told to not get attached to spec pay, as everyone was going to get pay reviews.

Also keep in mind Sigs has 0 choice in the pay, that's DPPD. All the branch can do is provide the documentation, and let the bean counters sort it out. The problem is, we saturate the trades with so many jobs, the spec jobs become a lower and lower percentage of what's actually expected. Yeah, you got lucky in postings and got a bunch of courses, but if 90% of the other jobs don't need those courses, you're likely not getting paid.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I'm not sure they still have that retention issue, if they can't laterally transfer to RCMP or a civvie force without training, they shouldn't get spec pay. 291ers were also told to not get attached to spec pay, as everyone was going to get pay reviews.

Neighbour is currently serving as an MP. Its apparently enough of a problem to survive a pay review before DPPD stopped the presses. Whether a trade should or shouldn't get spec is a matter of opinion, however bringing mr to your second point:

Also keep in mind Sigs has 0 choice in the pay, that's DPPD. All the branch can do is provide the documentation, and let the bean counters sort it out. The problem is, we saturate the trades with so many jobs, the spec jobs become a lower and lower percentage of what's actually expected. Yeah, you got lucky in postings and got a bunch of courses, but if 90% of the other jobs don't need those courses, you're likely not getting paid.

The onus is on D RCCS to provide an accurate representation of not merely the tasks performed in each specific job, but the knowledge required to be functional in each trade. There are plenty of trades that get paid spec for what they know versus what they do. DPPD needs to be convinced that a DP 2.1qualified IST's knowledge is Specialised. If that IST is sitting in a Help Desk at the moment, doesn't mean that they won't be in a Server Det down the road. The knowledge is lost the second they leave for someting better.

We have a huge issue in the RCCS of selling ourselves short to the rest of the Army, be it for H&A, Pay, or any other number of issues. The sooner we resolve the chip we have on our shoulder, thw better life will be for Corps.  :2c:

 

[PuckChaser]

The onus is on D RCCS to provide an accurate representation of not merely the tasks performed in each specific job, but the knowledge required to be functional in each trade. There are plenty of trades that get paid spec for what they know versus what they do. DPPD needs to be convinced that a DP 2.1qualified IST's knowledge is Specialised. If that IST is sitting in a Help Desk at the moment, doesn't mean that they won't be in a Server Det down the road. The knowledge is lost the second they leave for someting better.

LCIS did all the server jobs (with some Sig Ops cross-trained in) prior to MES, received spec pay, and were still at 75-78% PML. Money isn't going to solve your problems. Taking care of troops (not freezing their pay for 5 years for no reason) is what will retain people.

Anyone buying IST was going to get spec pay should never go buy a used car, you'll get taken, again.

Also, take a look what a Network Administrator makes civvie side:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Network_Administrator/Salary/38f77541/Mid-Career

Roughly $38K to 76K based on experience.

Corporal makes $56K on standard pay scale at IPC 0.

You get paid more in the CAF for less experience, and it balances out later career by earning slightly below averages based on that late career experience. Post Warrant Officer (16-20 yrs exp), you're also no longer employed as a technical expert except in very small cases like FoS, or whatever the IST Wiseman is called (FIST?). Spec Pay is just going to widen the gap between the public and private sector at the start, and you'll end up with the same brain drain at 12-15 year experience, because the pay gap merges, and those members are doing less and less actual hands on work.

You're never going to stop the brain drain. I don't see a scenario where we maintain above 90% PML for the highly technical trades in the CAF. Civilian companies have deeper pockets, and can change rapidly to meet emerging pay/benefit trends. A lot of pilots get their wings, do their time, get out and get a civvie job. Same with some RCN trades. The CAF cannot keep up with the Joneses, the best we can do is have an agile training and career management system that allows a "next guy up" mentality to get the job done when someone pulls pin. Treating every technical person as a special flower (polar opposite of what happens now) will just build a sense of entitlement and not fix institutional issues.

 

[ixium]

Everyone get the email about the cap badge/collar dogs/other that they were looking to change?

Pretty sure I got it by accident by ex-CoC because no one in my current unit had a clue about it.

Is there an actual vote that is going to happen, and are the younger troops having a say like the email says?

I also -loved- the strong wording they used through out that made which choices the top want to be very obvious.

(So happy this thread is still alive. Almost has as much time alive as I do military time. The thread creator is also retiring in 2 weeks...if he is who I have thought him to be this whole time...)

 

[PuckChaser]

You can vote here: https://cmcen.ca/2016/07/07/rccs-dark-blue-beret-and-rccs-collar-dogs/
Also found this link on the history of the beret colours: https://cmcen.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/history-of-the-berets.docx

For those who haven't seen it before, cmcen.ca is trying to build an online presence that we've been sorely lacking. Pretty good collection of information about the Branch, but is a work in progress.

 

[buzgo]

whatever the IST Wiseman is called (FIST?).

Foreman of Signals (Information Systems)

FoS (IS) or Foreman IS

;-)

 

[PuckChaser]

FIST is significantly cooler, guess that's why they didn't go with it.