Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[PuckChaser]

To be fair, I'm away from home atm on exercise - but as I do have some access to DWAN I would've expected to see it before now. My fault for not staying current in the army.ca forums.

I didn't mean it was your fault for not knowing, I was just really hoping JSR didn't forget someone with critical information like that. It wasn't supposed to be passed via email, only by briefing from senior leadership.

 

[ixium]

If it is supposed to be passed on anyways, can there be a quick write up about it?

I know where I am it wasn't passed down at all or even mentioned, unless the information is JSR specific.

 

[PuckChaser]

PM me your DWAN and I'll forward it on to you. That stands for anyone else outside the Sigs world that may have been forgotten.

 

[Old and Tired]

PM me your DWAN and I'll forward it on to you. That stands for anyone else outside the Sigs world that may have been forgotten.

Can you send it to me as well.  I'm not on DWAN, which is the problem in receiving and branch info. PM sent as well.

 

[PuckChaser]

No worries. I had your PM here, but for some reason its gone now.... I'm back on DWAN Friday, if you resend I'll get it to you then.

 

[mike02]

Hey guys, I just got an offer for ACISS tech, I haven't accepted yet because I keep reading bad bad things about the trade. I am not worried about the spec pay, I'm more worried about career progression and quality leadership. All I've been reading is horror stories of bad leadership, being setup for failure and the likes. I don't know how true it is but I'd love to hear some good stories about the trade, or reasons why you guys aren't going to release the first chance you get. Any help is appreciated.

 

[ixium]

Career progression is going to be based a lot on what subtrade you get into. ACISS core seems to have promoted A LOT of people this year, but from what I heard the CST/IST guys there weren't as many.
As well obviously how well you know and do you job, as well as how you play the political game. It won't matter for the first 7? 8? years anyways since Cpl is a for sure thing.

Bad leadership exists, and sometimes you get put in a position under them and it sucks for the time being, but eventually they or you move onto a different place. If you end up working for someone like that you just put your head down, do any legal orders they have (bitch only to people that you trust too...) and hope that someone else distracts them by fucking up some how. That is honestly the easiest way.

I'm about half and half with good leadership vs bad. Sometimes it is your direct supervisor, sometimes it is a couple people up the chain. I've worked with more supervisors that I'd follow anywhere than ones that I wouldn't follow into Walmart, so there is that. The good ones can be stifled by higher ups though.

As for why I don't leave...It is a great paying job in most of the country, great benefits for family, etc. I'd change trades if the trade wasn't red when I was seriously looking into it, but now that I have had some good positions it isn't as bad. Mostly won't OT because I don't want to do a year of training again to be honest.
You'll run into people in this trade and say "wow, I know why they stick around" because if they were at any other job civilian side (or even military) they would have been kicked out/fired a long time ago. We seem to keep a fair amount of those types.

 

[mike02]

I think what's got me freaked out is the question of why the trade is so desperate for people, I don't want to become that guy who OTs as soon as possible or VR's and re enlists to get the trade he really wanted. What's something youwish you would have known or done before coming into the ACISS trade?

 

[ixium]

ACISS has a huge variety of jobs. If you like one aspect of it, you may never actually do it.

In 7 years I have done brigade HQ, RRB det, server dets, regimental HQ, squadron signaler, crypto custodian, air-ground-air operator.
Then I know people that have done only one of those, or something completely different for the last 8 years. All the same trade(ACISS Core).

If a recruiter asks if you want to hump a radio on your back in a section with infantry doing patrols, they are right.
If a recruiter asks if you are a complete geek type that only wants to work on computers and servers, they are right.
If a recruiter asks if you're looking for a desk type job that doesn't involve much field time, they are right.

Don't join ACISS unless you are prepared to do any of the jobs, because you really don't have much of a choice. You can voice your opinion to your chain of command, but it ultimately isn't up to you.

If you want another trade, or just want to join fast, then I highly suggest you just wait it out. It is hard to OT out of our trade and I only imagine it to get worse.

 

[mike02]

ACISS has a huge variety of jobs. If you like one aspect of it, you may never actually do it.

In 7 years I have done brigade HQ, RRB det, server dets, regimental HQ, squadron signaler, crypto custodian, air-ground-air operator.
Then I know people that have done only one of those, or something completely different for the last 8 years. All the same trade(ACISS Core).

If a recruiter asks if you want to hump a radio on your back in a section with infantry doing patrols, they are right.
If a recruiter asks if you are a complete geek type that only wants to work on computers and servers, they are right.
If a recruiter asks if you're looking for a desk type job that doesn't involve much field time, they are right.

Don't join ACISS unless you are prepared to do any of the jobs, because you really don't have much of a choice. You can voice your opinion to your chain of command, but it ultimately isn't up to you.

If you want another trade, or just want to join fast, then I highly suggest you just wait it out. It is hard to OT out of our trade and I only imagine it to get worse.

Well, I have a lot to think about. I don't think I'm prepared to do every aspect of the trade. I'm gonna go back to the recruiters on Monday and see what my options are. You're right no point jumping at the first offer just so I can get in a month early and be stuck 4 years in something I'm not comfortable with.

 

[RedMan]

ACISS has a huge variety of jobs. If you like one aspect of it, you may never actually do it.

In 7 years I have done brigade HQ, RRB det, server dets, regimental HQ, squadron signaler, crypto custodian, air-ground-air operator.
Then I know people that have done only one of those, or something completely different for the last 8 years. All the same trade(ACISS Core).

If a recruiter asks if you want to hump a radio on your back in a section with infantry doing patrols, they are right.
If a recruiter asks if you are a complete geek type that only wants to work on computers and servers, they are right.
If a recruiter asks if you're looking for a desk type job that doesn't involve much field time, they are right.

Don't join ACISS unless you are prepared to do any of the jobs, because you really don't have much of a choice. You can voice your opinion to your chain of command, but it ultimately isn't up to you.

If you want another trade, or just want to join fast, then I highly suggest you just wait it out. It is hard to OT out of our trade and I only imagine it to get worse.

Sound advice. I joined as LCIS, though I literally asked the recruiters of the time about ACISS, and they told me it was BS.  After BMQ, I arrived at Kingston only to be told I was no longer LCIS, I was ACISS. Had I would have been given sound, accurate information on ACISS before joining, I would have chosen differently.

ACISS is very diverse... not just for the ACISS Core (which used to be Signal Operator) as mentioned above, but you have Techs and Lineman and IST thrown in the mix. Its a big trade that is still (years later) trying to define itself. I have worked with new ACISS DP1 guys that had no idea that there were techs or lineman in the trade, and that they would have to do OJT in all sub-occs and chose what they wanted to be in ACISS (Core, or sub-occ) afterward.

As was mentioned...you won't necessarily get to be what you want...and that is part of the problem. To this day, I can't tell those guys for sure what the process is... I thought I finally had it all figured out, but its getting mixed up again.

If you want to only work as a Tech or IST and you hate being on radios, it doesn't matter. If they need a radio operator, they will use a tech or lineman or IST to fill the job. However, the problem is they can't do it the other way around. They can't have an ACISS Core do a sub-occ job even if they want to because they aren't qualified.... and now they are finding they are getting low on techs which is another issue. It's getting to the point where they may start having ACISS Core guys having to become Techs weather they want to or not.

The bottom line is ACISS has become an over-complicated trade. A shame, really.

Yes, keep in mind that you will be going into a red trade, which means it will be difficult to get out of if it's not want you wanted. I got pulled into a trade (ACISS) I didn't sign up for, and I made it clear that I didn't want it. I had to wait 5 years, but I am now OT'd to another trade that I wanted from the beginning. I was lucky to be able to (with the trade being red) because of my background and training and how it related to my new trade choices.

 

[PuckChaser]

We were low on techs to start with, creating another trade or "subocc" only made that problem worse.

The advice holds true for anyone, don't join a trade just to get in and want to OT right away. You'll just end up angry at the world being stuck doing something you don't like and the CAF doesn't owe anyone an OT.

 

[mike02]

Thanks for the advice guys. I turned down the offer and am awaiting word on my other choices. It's a shame really, I was totally gung ho for certain sub occs. But as said earlier I was not ready to do all 4 sub occs. I appreciate all the help and hope this whole mess gets sorted out soon.

 

[c_canuk]

Heard a rumour certain people are spreading information up their CoC that installing, programming and maintaining routers and switches is a hard CST job, and not in the AOR of IST.

This puzzles me since this material is covered in depth in the IST TPs.

Is this person wrong? Is there overlap between the sub occs?

It seems to me, that if the hardware itself does not require physical repairs, it would be network infrastructure and therefore an IST responsiblity.

 

[PuckChaser]

Maybe they're talking about the LES? We have so much overlap in our trades, I don't know why there is always saying "you can't do that, it's only for x trade". At the end of the day, if you know how to get the message through, do it. That's our job.

 

[RedMan]

Heard a rumour certain people are spreading information up their CoC that installing, programming and maintaining routers and switches is a hard CST job, and not in the AOR of IST.

This puzzles me since this material is covered in depth in the IST TPs.

Is this person wrong? Is there overlap between the sub occs?

It seems to me, that if the hardware itself does not require physical repairs, it would be network infrastructure and therefore an IST responsiblity.

This used to be the case with LCIS before ACISS. I haven't met an IST that actually does this, though that doesn't mean there aren't other IST out there who have.

ACISS CST is still trained in Data Comms just like LCIS used to be, and I know a few that do this kind of work.

The problem is, this is another one of those blurred lines...or grey areas that, 4 years later has yet to be clearly be defined and sorted out. The way it seems is that by default, this is an ACISS CST job (like it used to be for LCIS), but it can also be an ATIS job, and maybe an IST job depending on the unit.

E-Lan is all Ethernet based, and relies on Routers and Switches (LES) and laptops to run, yet you will probably never see an IST go anywhere near it.

The bottom line... we still don't clearly know who is "supposed" to do what in this area. Lots of overlap across the board. One of the "perks" of ACISS I suppose.... 

 

[c_canuk]

If CST is still being trained in datacomms, it's an overlap, because datacomms is in the IST DP 1.1.

This frustrates me because for the life of me I can't figure out why it's still an CST Job.

From what I understand CST was supposed to be the portion of LCIS that was hard LCIS that required POET etc and was hardware centric, while IST was supposed to be a splitting off of the IT Infrastructure Firmware/Software.

Programming a switch or router, setting up a server etc seems to me to be the bread and butter of ISTs TP.

The only reason I can see that ISTs aren't doing this job more often because the IST sub occ is too new, so the LCIS incumbents that are now CSTs are still in those positions.  That, and incumbents are claiming this it is a CST only job.

It's my opinion that if it doesn't involve troubleshooting/repair/engineering hardware, it's not a CST job.

The sensible breakdown of AORs as I see it goes

LCT - Transmission Medium from point to point, terminating connections, DVOs, power?,
ACISS - Setup and Operate End point equipment, basic operator troubleshooting, forwarding N/S Kit for repair/replace.
CST - Equipment Troubleshooting/Repair/Engineering, TCIs, EMSEC
IST - Network Backbone - switches, routers, servers, tunneling, data crypto?

If ISTs don't look after switches, routers, servers, what the hell are we for then?

I do know several ISTs that are indeed programming switches and routers, I met them on my DP2.1 Delta trg last year.

If the powers that be want IST to survive, we'd better get an IST wiseman to stand up and define our AOR soonish.

 

[Swingline1984]

If the powers that be want IST to survive, we'd better get an IST wiseman to stand up and define our AOR soonish.

You are getting one in the school this summer to champion your cause.

Most of these issues are due to the fact that the Job Based Specifications for each sub-occupation were not hammered out prior to the implementation date for the new all-encompassing occupation (an explanation, not an excuse).

 

[JBP]

If CST is still being trained in datacomms, it's an overlap, because datacomms is in the IST DP 1.1.

This frustrates me because for the life of me I can't figure out why it's still an CST Job.

From what I understand CST was supposed to be the portion of LCIS that was hard LCIS that required POET etc and was hardware centric, while IST was supposed to be a splitting off of the IT Infrastructure Firmware/Software.

Programming a switch or router, setting up a server etc seems to me to be the bread and butter of ISTs TP.

The only reason I can see that ISTs aren't doing this job more often because the IST sub occ is too new, so the LCIS incumbents that are now CSTs are still in those positions.  That, and incumbents are claiming this it is a CST only job.

It's my opinion that if it doesn't involve troubleshooting/repair/engineering hardware, it's not a CST job.

The sensible breakdown of AORs as I see it goes

LCT - Transmission Medium from point to point, terminating connections, DVOs, power?,
ACISS - Setup and Operate End point equipment, basic operator troubleshooting, forwarding N/S Kit for repair/replace.
CST - Equipment Troubleshooting/Repair/Engineering, TCIs, EMSEC
IST - Network Backbone - switches, routers, servers, tunneling, data crypto?

If ISTs don't look after switches, routers, servers, what the hell are we for then?

I do know several ISTs that are indeed programming switches and routers, I met them on my DP2.1 Delta trg last year.

If the powers that be want IST to survive, we'd better get an IST wiseman to stand up and define our AOR soonish.

So, from my experience at two completely different units (1 Sigs, CFJSR) and two very different operations (OP ATHENA, OP IMPACT) never mind the various international ex's and other things I've done, I've barely seen CST's do a whole lot of programming switches and routers. Or touching servers... Or doing anything in an IST way for that matter. In 2008, we had a 'Connectivity' tech who was a QL5 Qualified LCIS in 1 Sigs who did actually do a lot of programming. One. Guy. Then he was posted in end of 2008 I believe. Since then, there were no LCIS in C Tp, it was all "Sig Ops" manning all the routers, switches, servers, you name it. We deployed to OP ATHENA 2011... Again, mid-switch from Sig Op to ACISS-IST. Once again, all Sig Ops running the networks and servers.

Fast forward 2013 I'm posted to CFJSR... Not a single LCIS tech giving a f$ck except one exceptional MCpl I deployed to Cyprus with who really knew his networking. One. Guy. Again... Fast forward a little more to the present OP IMPACT... We have a few (2-3) ACISS-CST whom work here... Doing very very traditional LCIS roles. Fixing, tagging and bagging NS kit, working a national rear-link sat and... Well... Doing that stuff! They do tinker a little with some networking. Who is running the deployed networks and servers? ACISS-IST.

All the front line field units I've dealt with from 2008-now have all been guys whom were Sig Ops at the time or are now ACISS-IST running networks and serves. I think maybe the time period before me LCIS used to do more of our type of job.

Also just finished the last (literally) serial of Data Comms before I came here. 1/2 the class of 12 was ATIS & ACISS-CST, other half was ACISS-IST. They course staff advised us this was the very very last serial and wasn't even supposed to run, as all the relevant portions of Data Comms have been pushed to ACISS-IST 1.1 and ATIS QL5.

Point being: ACISS-CST aren't supposed to be doing networking anymore. Not unless specifically required by their individual position. I think over the past couple years someone wised up and realized they were sleeping too long in the back of the LCIS shop while everyone watched satellite TV and now they noticed they gave away too much of their jobs. Our own ACISS-CST in CFJSR joke that they have become the "GD Tp" because they don't have anything better to do usually.

I don't know what people's experience has been in places like CFNOC, ANOC / other positions in Ottawa but I know quite a few ACISS-IST's that are manning national service desks, critical networks and nobody knows where CST's are or what they do anymore.

We also now (brand new) have a 4th wiseman. CFJSR has made a position for a WO ACISS-IST to be the fabled 4th wiseman! So, FOS, CCO and LCF + ... I don't know what the new acronym is... IST guy! From MY limited perspective it appears that ACISS-CST has been almost obsoleted, more so than a lot of people thought ACISS-Core even would be. They do a whole lot of setting up camp and tearing it down god-bless, but they're 1/2 obsolete but I think radios will always be around so they have a saving grace.

Lastly, ACISS-ISTs also now get a 'tech stamp' to inspect information systems related equipment and tag it as they feel appropriate. Big changes folks! Massive... If I have time (Hahaha!) I'll try and dig up the job specification from DIN and paste it here. It literally breaks down what each sub-occ is supposed to do.

I want to meet these LCIS guys who are doing IST jobs! We have some that switched from legacy LCIS- ACISS-IST!
:2c:

 

[PuckChaser]

4th wiseman should be called the FIST.