Army Cadet Dress Regs updated 46-01

[Jabrwock]

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=46-01

Highlights:

- forbids CADPAT (no surprise there)
- authorizes CadetPAT/OD on FTXs (although they are a Field Training Uniform only, not authorized as a parade uniform, ie you can't wear it going to-from cadets)
- affiliated unit shoulder flashes are recommended for senior cadets only, junior cadets are encouraged to use the new corps badges, same with cap badges
- trouser belt is to be plain, or Army Cadet crest only, no CF insignia
- white web-belts for parade positions, guard, and band only, no more tri-service/CF belt buckles, only Army Cadet crest or affiliated unit

Left my initial question up in the air when I heard they were authorizing CadetPAT, while the pictures show OD with gold-on-green slip-ons, it doesn't say whether the slip-ons supplied by the Army Cadet League are authorized for use with CadetPAT. It does say that "Cadet Field Uniform sold at ACL websites" is fully authorized, so that might include the slip-ons the ACL sells as part of the FTU... But then again it might not, because OD slip-ons with "CADET" written on them are apparently a no.

 

[catalyst]

I wonder whats going to happen with the tri-service belt buckles

 

[Jabrwock]

I wonder whats going to happen with the tri-service belt buckles

Go into the same drawer in supply as the old red rank badges I guess.

 

[catalyst]

Except that these are DA accountable items - guess the CF is getting a heck of a lot more back into the supply system.

I've never actually seen an army cadet belt buckle or a blank one for webbing.

I highly doubt that cadets will get rid of them - The sea side and Air side can still wear them.

 

[Jabrwock]

I've never actually seen an army cadet belt buckle or a blank one for webbing.

Neither have I.

I highly doubt that cadets will get rid of them - The sea side and Air side can still wear them.

Just the web-belt though, Air side can't wear tri-force trouser belts. I expect it won't actually come into force until they have a replacement. I have yet to see an Army Cadet crest trouser belt buckle or web-belt buckle. And the idea of a blank web buckle is just silly.

 

[gwp]

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=46-01
Left my initial question up in the air when I heard they were authorizing CadetPAT, while the pictures show OD with gold-on-green slip-ons, it doesn't say whether the slip-ons supplied by the Army Cadet League are authorized for use with CadetPAT. It does say that "Cadet Field Uniform sold at ACL websites" is fully authorized, so that might include the slip-ons the ACL sells as part of the FTU... But then again it might not, because OD slip-ons with "CADET" written on them are apparently a no.

The intent is that the only rank insignia to be worn is "cadet" rank insignial ... gold on green

RANK INSIGNIA
76. General. Rank insignia shall be worn on the right sleeve of the dress jacket and on both slip-ons when wearing the shirt, the all-season jacket and the FTU. At CSTC, only staff-cadets wear rank slip-ons.

INTERPRETATION OF CATO
7. If an item of wear is not included in this CATO it is not authorized and shall not be worn.

Only cadet rank slip ons (gold on green) are mentioned in the CATO

 

[gwp]

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=46-01
no more tri-service/CF belt buckles, only Army Cadet crest or affiliated unit

23. Trousers/slacks belt and buckle for Army Cadets. A narrow black web belt with brass buckle. Only those buckles with the Army Cadet crest or without any badge are allowed. Cadets are not to use the buckle of Canadian Forces units.

On the small trouser web belt buckle ... army cadet badge or blank.
With the ceremonial belt ... army cadet badge, affiliated unit, or blank.

y. white plastic/nylon ceremonial belt. Authorized for wear by cadets holding command positions on parade, by the guard and by the band. A brass buckle must anchor the belt. Only those brass buckles with the Army Cadet badge, the affiliated unit badge or without badge are allowed;

Can the Army Cadet brass cap badge be fixed in the place of the tri-service badge on the ceremonial belt?

 

[Franko]

Can the Army Cadet brass cap badge be fixed in the place of the tri-service badge on the ceremonial belt?

It would take some modificaton....if it's authorized.

I can't see one buckle being a problem but several thousand would have to be done as a bulk order and, I would think, take some time.

Then you have issuing out to districts and sub units.

Again, someone re-inventing the wheel in Ottawa and going to cost the system monies that would be better spent on summer camps and training.

Cheaper to ask the Affiliated units to give out some buckles with the bonus benefit of strengthen the bonds between the cadet unit and the affil.

Regards

 

[Jabrwock]

Cheaper to ask the Affiliated units to give out some buckles with the bonus benefit of strengthen the bonds between the cadet unit and the affil.

That makes sense, although for many new corps they don't have an affiliated unit, or their aff unit isn't as involved due to constraints like location/budget/etc.

 

[Jabrwock]

The intent is that the only rank insignia to be worn is "cadet" rank insignial ... gold on green. Only cadet rank slip ons (gold on green) are mentioned in the CATO.

Intent is for when you can't update a CATO, it's an interpretation handed down through the chain via memos. Why not clarify it when you DO update the CATO though?

They muddle things by stating that slip-ons must adhere to badge positions noted in Annex D, but Annex D only describes the rank badges and which army they go on the tunic, nowhere does it describe a slip-on and what it MUST contain (it doesn't even state whether slip-ons HAVE to have the word CADET on them...).

The only picture they have of FTU is the OD, and they DO show it with gold-on-green, but they don't show a picture of the ACL FTU, which DOES include it's own slip-ons (they don't explicitly exclude any part of the ACL FTU in the description of authorized FTUs).

There is one part where they state that only authorized cadet ranks shall be worn. So is the ACL rank slip-ons authorized, or not?

I think they missed an opportunity to clarify what really would take merely a sentence and a picture. Annex A, Page 11, make it a picture of the ACL FTU with GoG slip-ons instead of a copy of Page 10 which already shows OD-107. Oh, and tell the ACL to note this on their website too, so you don't have cadets spending $10 for a rank badge that isn't authorized (unlike the rest of the FTU, which is).

 

[rwgill]

Cheaper to ask the Affiliated units to give out some buckles with the bonus benefit of strengthen the bonds between the cadet unit and the affil.

I was thinking that this would be the best way to go.  All CF regiments/branches already have an authorized ceremonial buckle...........correct?

 

[Franko]

I was thinking that this would be the best way to go.  All CF regiments/branches already have an authorized ceremonial buckle...........correct?

Yep. If not they fall back on the Tri Service one.

Again though....seems someone somewhere is picking pepper out of fly shyte.

Regards

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I was thinking that this would be the best way to go.  All CF regiments/branches already have an authorized ceremonial buckle...........correct?

Not avail through the supply system IIRC (Vern or any other supply tech in the know?), but can be individually purchased at the Kitshops.

Ex. I know that there is a different buckle for the white DEU belt avail in the CFSME Kitshop instead of being rectangular its round with the CME cap badge in it.

 

[armyvern]

I wonder whats going to happen with the tri-service belt buckles

Well for starters ... they should be returned to the Supply system (vice tossed into a drawer never to be seen or used again) where they came from because -- WE STILL USE THEM in the ResF and the RegF.

No dilemma there.

 

[armyvern]

Neither have I.
Just the web-belt though, Air side can't wear tri-force trouser belts. I expect it won't actually come into force until they have a replacement. I have yet to see an Army Cadet crest trouser belt buckle or web-belt buckle. And the idea of a blank web buckle is just silly.

Come into force??

As per the original link, they are already prohibited from wear IAW Army Cadet Dress Regs. That means --- they can't wear them NOW.

A blank web buckle is silly?? Why's that?? It seems to be fine for the RegF and ResF to wear a blank brass buckle on their DEU belts. Or is it all about the LCF?

 

[armyvern]

Not avail through the supply system IIRC (Vern or any other supply tech in the know?), but can be individually purchased at the Kitshops.

Ex. I know that there is a different buckle for the white DEU belt avail in the CFSME Kitshop instead of being rectangular its round with the CME cap badge in it.

Correct. RegF and ResF Units with their own insignia on their ceremonial buckles pay for these items using their Regimental funds. The buckles in the Supply system are the tri-service buckles.

Much like Regimental slip-ons/buttons etc are available for purchase at Regimental Kit Shops if you want them, but are not available through the CF Supply system.

 

[armyvern]

To add:

While any Cadet Corps with an affiliated RegF or ResF Unit is to be appointed a CLO (Cadet Liaison Officer) from the Unit to assist the Cadet Corps in achieving it's goals and provide direction/guidance as necessary. There is a distinct note made that affiliation shall not result in the ResF or RegF Units incurring any financial costs for the Cadet Corps.

Essentially, affiliated Units are not (as in shall not) to incur any financial responsibilities on behalf of the cadet corp.

Now, I'm quite sure that the cadet side of the house could address this particular issue based upon the fact that IF an affiliated Unit WANTED to give their own Regimental buckles to the corp they were associated with, that really --- The Crown is NOT incurring a financial responsibility by their provision of such precisely because it would actually be the Regimental Association of the Res/Reg Unit that therefore was incurring the costs. That's not taxpayers money ... so that makes a workaround possible for those who wish to pursue it from that angle.

It would then become not a "given", but would have to be on a corps by corps basis in consultation with their affiliated Units. Affiliated Units would have to "yay or nay" based upon the constitutions which govern their own Regimental funds expenditures.

 

[armyvern]

Yep. If not they fall back on the Tri Service one.

Again though....seems someone somewhere is picking pepper out of fly shyte.

Regards

Regimental funds. That's what your Regimental buckles are paid for with. And, even if they were paid for with Crown Funds contained within the CF budget - Cadets are not part of the CF; they are outside of Crown money and are not supposed to be financed with it.

It may be pepper out of flyshit, but do you really want a blanket policy change to Cadet Dress Regs to result in ReGF or ResF Unit Regimental funds being required to purchase and "donate" your brass buckles to affiliated cadet corps without having a say in such matters? It is after all your Regiment's money - you might want to know and have some say.

 

[rwgill]

Great points Vern.  Clears up the regimental belt buckle problem.

The tri-service buckles, does the cornflake not come off?  A blank buckle is better than no buckle. 

 

[armyvern]

Great points Vern.  Clears up the regimental belt buckle problem.

The tri-service buckles, does the cornflake not come off?  A blank buckle is better than no buckle. 

Yes, there are two types throughout the system; one type has the cornflake mounted right onto the buckle and one type has a hole in the buckle with the cornflake being attached via a screw.

Both the same NSN. I'm unsure which style is currently supplied into the system, but when a demand is placed - you could get one, or the other, or a combination of both.