Army.ca Ideology -- what is it?

[strongchristian]

I hope I can spark an academic debate, and not rile anyone up.

As far as I can see anyone can join this site and voice their opinion on here (like free speech in the real world). I personally feel this is very good.

However, the way things are run here seems to show little separation from official military way. Examples include threads where opinions or statements made by people with less or no military experience are belittled or even censored out, even when they may be making a valid refute to an "established" person's post. I see other "green" members getting reprimanded for taking a shot at someone "established", even if the experienced military person was far more disrespectful in the thread. It would seem that nothing is said to them.

I don't think it's necessary to manage the site this way. Say a newbie makes XYZ claim, everyone can see from his experience in his personal information what it's based on, and they can take it for what its worth. Just like real life. Anyone is free to jump on him with their reasoning, or even laugh at his ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim. That's free speech. But if we go past this and block his right to say something, even if he is not the brightest bulb, then it is not free speech anymore.

In the interest of brevity, I will sum up with the following: If Army.ca creates a forum where experienced or non-experienced personnel, military or civilian, anyone, can freely discuss matters on an even playing field, then I think something very great and original has been created here. If it fails to show any distinction from the hierarchical or "class" system, which is present in both military and civilian world, then I think it fails to be something special of its own.

So, what is the forum's ideology? What should it be?



That all being said, I would like to thank the moderators for the time they put in -- I really do enjoy this site!

 

[Manimal]

being that so many youth post here, and many have the same questions, over and over and over again, i understand the need for directing staff. but i feel there is too much censorship for the WWW, and not enough tolerance.
IMO if you don't like a topic or a poster, don't read it.....

 

[OLD F of S]

      This is after all Army.ca I expect it to reflect the military way of doing things.  As for expierienced versus inexperiened again I expect the mods to assume control that is their job to sort us out as required. This a well run forum and anyone can post within the guidelines, to me the biggest problem is posters not filling out their profile I admit I check and it does tend to affect how much I consider the post.


                                Regards OLD F of S

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

 Folks this is a private website funded by Mike Bobbitt. If we let the rules slide we would become just like militaryphotos.net with no direction and very few quality posts done by posers. If this forum becomes a haven for posers and wannabes, then you will drive the more knowledgeable and core membership away. Who wants to read 20,000 posts on what weapon is better the AK47 or the M16? Or who is the best Special Operations Group? I don't. 99% of the forum members don't either, hence we sometimes come down hard on people. Like the military, you have to prove yourself, and its usually the first impressions that last.
  If you have an issue with the way the site is moderated I suggest you get in touch with Mike Bobbitt via pm and when he can he will address your concers.

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

strongchristian,

Probably the easiest way to address your concerns is on case by case basis. Speaking to generalizations probably won't get you the level of detail you're looking for. If you want to pick out a few representative examples that make your case, we can discuss those individually.

Army.ca's ideology is to be a "meeting place" for those with an interest in the Canadian Army.

As Ex-Dragoon mentioned above, we see a lot of users whose purpose (intended or not) is to disrupt this site with inappropriate, repetitive or off topic discussions. Thankfully, through the work of the Staff, the "general population" doesn't see most of these. The downside is that in order to be able to keep thing running smoothly, sometimes innocent posters (generally those who have not read the Guidelines, but not always) are caught up in the dragnet.

I submit that it is the users who come here to disrupt, and not the Staff or senior members, that are the source of the problem. That is, they have necessarily put us on the defensive, and unfortunately when we operate in this mode, we lose a bit of our "freedom" as a site. The alternative is to open the gates, allowing everyone more unlimited access, but the results of that may not be as positive as you'd initially expect. Over the last 11 years, we've found a method that we believe strikes a balance between keeping the peace and allowing free discussion.

As always, we are open to review so if you have specific cases you'd like to discuss, we can certainly do that. Please also bear in mind that there are plenty of "unseen" cases that would likely make your hair raise, that the Staff have to deal with on a near daily basis.


Cheers
Mike

 

[Manimal]

 Folks this is a private website funded by Mike Bobbitt. If we let the rules slide we would become just like militaryphotos.net with no direction and very few quality posts done by posers. If this forum becomes a haven for posers and wannabes, then you will drive the more knowledgeable and core membership away. Who wants to read 20,000 posts on what weapon is better the AK47 or the M16? Or who is the best Special Operations Group? I don't. 99% of the forum members don't either, hence we sometimes come down hard on people. Like the military, you have to prove yourself, and its usually the first impressions that last.
  If you have an issue with the way the site is moderated I suggest you get in touch with Mike Bobbitt via pm and when he can he will address your concers.

i like that!

 

[Springroll]

I can understand what is being said by both sides, but here are my observations.

If you are not a member of the CF, you get crapped on" for having no experience, you are bel;ittled(I have seen a few posts of this< and what really gets me is when someone posts on here, and the topic has been brought up before, someone decideds it is their duty to scold the person for not searching first.

This forum is run very differently than the others that I am on, and even in here, being told I should watch what I say because I am wanting to join and my course instructors are on here....well that is just wrong.

I know this is a private owned forum, but you have to take responsibility for those that you have join and how they treat the other members on here, regardless of CF experience or not.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Manimal]

yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ass. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.

 

[Springroll]

yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.

I agree. There are some awesome members on here that are very knowledgable and are very good at explaining things, and then you have those jack arses who like to be jerks, but that goes with every forum on the internet.

 

[Manimal]

fact is though, this isn't the army, and you don't talk to people like that..... i think some of these tough guys should pull that at the bar some night LOL

 

[Island Ryhno]

I see Bruce will be along shortly to help sort out your issues  ;D As for this board, I think you will find that there are two distinct types of threads, Opinion and Fact. Now everyone has an opinion, it's normal human behaviour and if you think it through, formulate it and then type it in a comprehensible manner it will be debated. If you're taliking through your hat, you'll be called on it. It works the same way in real life, yes even in the bars, where the "real tough guys" hang out. Now on the Fact based threads, this is how it works: people in the know and with the experience rule the thread with an iron fist, because misinformation is very troubling. You can't have one wannabe running about with the wrong info from another wannabe now can you? Also, sometimes Opinion crosses Facts and what you get is FOPINION or false facts based on an opinion. Very messy stuff indeed. The bottom line here is, stay in your arc and your feelings will not get hurt. If you are on an Opinion based thread and want to debate with people, yes even the staff, then have at 'er. In a respectfully hot tempered manner of course. If you are on a Facts based thread and want to have it out, well you better the one with all the t-shirts. Oye, I love this board, keep up the good work I say.

 

[Springroll]

In a respectfully hot tempered manner of course.

Not everyone is giving everyone else the respect that is deserved!!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quotes from Manimal,
yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.

fact is though, this isn't the army, and you don't talk to people like that..... i think some of these tough guys should pull that at the bar some night LOL

Folks,
if you need to see posts that drives home the need for "staff involvement", I give you the above display..............

Manimal,
go pull your internet tough guy act somewhere else, this is your warning........

EDIT: Thanks, Ryhno for that. Just to add something here that Ryhno touched on, yes I am DS here, but go through my posts and see how many times I put info into the "fact" based threds,....almost never, as I have no knowledge the "better, faster, harder" and instead use this forum to help fill in those gaps instead of trying to BS my way through,....I mean really, what does that accomplish?

 

[Manimal]

i try to type with respect! it's not always returned.
when i type fact, i make sure i'm 110% on with it. or i make sure it's known it's my opinion. i've never passed anything on as fact when i don't know..... but still met with rudeness.

i do hear what you are saying about needing the right info out there, i agree, but it can be done with respect!

 

[Danjanou]

yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.

Don't be sure of that. You act like an immature punk in person and I'll treat you the same way on the street as in here.

On the other hand, act like a mature individual and I'm more inclined to share a beer with you and listen to your point of view on just about any subject under the sun even those I disagree with ( as long as you can provide me with a factual rationale debate)  and that goes for whether you're a recruit just sworn in or the CDS. Most of the DS that I know here are they same way.

Fact is this place is called army.ca and as often noted it does mirror military society in many respects. That means rules and a certain hierarchy exist here. Don't like it no one chained you to your keyboard and forced you to post here. Want to set up your own site and espouse "your" ideal philosophy" fill your boots. Hey send me the link and I may even drop. Mind if I don't like it understand I may not stay there. I like it here just fine the way it is. Still would even if I wasn't one the "privileged DS."

There's a mechanism in place to report abuse of the site including perceived abuse of and by DS. It works too. Probably because we based it on the same systems we all learned in uniform.

Ex Dragoon mentioned militaryphotos.net. Anyone who wants to see the "ideal cyber community" that some here are advocating this place should be, are more than welcome to take a visit over there. Go fast though because I seriously doubt it's going to be around much longer. Either the site owner and mods turn it into a version of this place and soon or it's going to collapse on itself.

Edit: Name the bar troop and we'll test your theory.  8)

 

[Manimal]

Quotes from Manimal,
yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.

fact is though, this isn't the army, and you don't talk to people like that..... i think some of these tough guys should pull that at the bar some night LOL

Folks,
if you need to see posts that drives home the need for "staff involvement", I give you the above display..............

Manimal,
go pull your internet tough guy act somewhere else, this is your warning........

EDIT: Thanks, Ryhno for that. Just to add something here that Ryhno touched on, yes I am DS here, but go through my posts and see how many times I put info into the "fact" based threds,....almost never, as I have no knowledge the "better, faster, harder" and instead use this forum to help fill in those gaps instead of trying to BS my way through,....I mean really, what does that accomplish?

i wasn't being tough, i was pointing out how other do it.... point made, 'warning' taken.

 

[Springroll]

Can I name the bar and we can go have a few???

I am really needing to get out of the house more..hehehe ;D

 

[muskrat89]

Refer to the conduct guidelines, and the moderator guidelines. If anyone feels like they have been mistreated, they can PM Mike. If it didn't upset you enough to send him a PM, then - quite frankly - too bad. If you have specific, constructive suggestions - post them or PM Mike. I haven't seen a case yet where he didn't respond to legitimate questions or suggestions. At the end of the day, no one is being forced at gun point to log on to this site.

Springroll - saying that your instructors or peoples' superiors may be on this site is a heads up, and a fact of life - not a threat. When people are  total morons, we usually let them prattle on and find out for themselves. Despite your propensity to have the final word in almost every discussion, someone obviously thought enough of you that they should mention it.

We have had these types of threads before, and I predict a lock is not too far away. People complain. Other people dogpile on to the complainers. Staff gets tired of keeping an eye on the mess, while allowing (within reason) people to complain about the job they are doing.

 

[Manimal]

man, i don't drink, but i'm always willing to accompany a lady out  king with lines.

 

[Manimal]

all in all, most of the staff are great, and some of the members are really great.
so all in all, you take the good with the bad. i'm not going to lose any sleep over being treated poorly by some ass on the net.
i'm just tired and bitching about it now.

so before i stick my foot in my mouth. thanks guys for the great site, i really do love it. and you're probably doing the right thing, even though i don't see the big picture....(cause of my lack of experience here)