Armoured Soldier Questions

[Trooper Hale]

Thats not too different to the RAAC ASLAV course though it seems theres a lot more inspections going on. One question, whats "My Boy Willy"? I've heard of that somewhere before. I may have to search but its an old song thats been modified to be a tankie song isnt it?
Sounds like a top course.
The Australian Army one starts with 7 weeks at Binh Ba Troop which deals with your dismounted phase and infantry weapons from F88steyr, GLA, Minimi (C9), BHP 9mm, claymore etc. Then you move on to Radio wing for 3weeks, Driving and Servicing wing for 4 weeks where you and a crew of 4 misuse and abuse an ASLAV. Until finally your onto Gunnery Wing to play with MAG58 and 12.7QCB for a week. After which you get posted.
Seems the Australian course is little more relaxed then the Canadian one. I'm in no way saying that its a swan but unless the course stuffs up they treat the boys pretty well and give them some room.

 

[geo]

X-MO
How does the DP1 course vary for the reservists?

The DP1 course for sappers is in general, identical for Regs & Res - though the reservist's course is split over two summers.  What's up for the Crewman?

 

[George Wallace]

geo

This is where there has become a widening gap between Reg and Res Armour skill sets.  The Reserves don't get any Coyote Crses (with the few exceptions of those who may get posted on a Class B to the Armour School or Wainwright and fill Coyote slots).  This has greatly affected the Armour Corps and is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed. 

 

[geo]

George,
The Sappers were pert much in the same boat a couple of years ago.  It's only been two years since the courses have been streamlined to make a Sapper a Sapper... with similar skill sets.

 

[X-mo-1979]

X-MO
How does the DP1 course vary for the reservists?

The DP1 course for sappers is in general, identical for Regs & Res - though the reservist's course is split over two summers.  What's up for the Crewman?

It's a bit of a confusion to me actually.I have seen young reserve armoured cpl's with multiple tours/PLQ show up and do the whole course.However at the Mcpl level they tend to come into the regular force retaining rank.

As George said,the biggest difference would be the coyote qualification.And I'm actually not too sure if the reserve world followed our lead in revamping the DP1 earlier in the year.

The previous DP1 course we had was modularised.Troops with reserve time usually showed up for the final mod only,which was the coyote driver portion.Now they have to do the whole course.

 

[George Wallace]

Some of the Armour Skill Sets fade rather quickly, such as TCCS, LAV Gunnery, LAV D&M, PLGR (or its replacement), and of course the Surv Suite; all of which now place a Crewman's Security Level up to Lvl II.  They would fade even quicker for the Reservists, who have for the majority of these cases, no access to maintain their skills.  Plus, you are adding on the extra Security Clearances that many would have to be processed through and we all know how time consuming that is.

 

[geo]

George & X-MO

Have no fear, there is a skill set fade on the Sapper side of the house as well.  Regardless of what people say, we're all from the same gene pool.  (though the sappers have an extra "I" cromosone [genIe] )

The engineer branch figured that it was easier to refresh a dimmed skill set than to train all new when it came time to fill in the "delta" gap separating Reg from Res... is it wise & utopian OR a wasteful use of resources? Everyone has an opinion.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Geo
Something else i have noticed is the large amount of reserve augmentee with tour's  I've been on with CER.This definitely brings up the level of individual training in the reserve engineers,as well as their respective units when they return.We however augment our reservist outside of the trade usually.

Having said that there is now a large amount of experience on convoy escorts from our reserve counterparts,due to Afghanistan as D&S platoon.Hopefully this will prove helpful to their units in the next 5-10 years when these members move ahead in the ranks.

 

[geo]

Geo
Something else i have noticed is the large amount of reserve augmentee with tour's  I've been on with CER.This definitely brings up the level of individual training in the reserve engineers, as well as their respective units when they return.We however augment our reservist outside of the trade usually.

Having said that there is now a large amount of experience on convoy escorts from our reserve counterparts, due to Afghanistan as D&S platoon.Hopefully this will prove helpful to their units in the next 5-10 years when these members move ahead in the ranks.

If there is a need to train our reserve armoured recce troops for convoy escort / route recces / etc... should we then re-role those units so that they can actively train to do that very job?  Equip them with the basic gear they would need AND Give meaning to their existence?

 

[Spartan]

That was the idea behind the Armour Corp fighting for the Reserve Armoured Recce units to have GWagons versus the Milcots the army wanted to give us - so that we can maintain the basic skills and drills and have some transferability to the Regular Force - some of the problems therein I believe have been discussed at length about reroling/ changing the reserve system.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

x

 

[George Wallace]

That was the idea behind the Armour Corp fighting for the Reserve Armoured Recce units to have GWagons versus the Milcots the army wanted to give us - so that we can maintain the basic skills and drills and have some transferability to the Regular Force - some of the problems therein I believe have been discussed at length about reroling/ changing the reserve system.

Although the Gwagon is a better vehicle than a Milcot, I find it strange that you figure it would allow the Reserves to maintain basic skills and drills that would be transferable to the Reg Force.  The GWagon is not a Recce Veh any more than a Milcot. 


VP is VP.
Map Reading is Map Reading.
Theories of Gunnery are Theories of Gunnery.
C6 Drills are C6 Drills.
However:
C6 Drills are not M242 Drills
Coupola and Turrets are two different things.
Driving down the road inside a cab and driving down the road in a Recce Vehicle are not the same thing.
Recce tactics with a truck are not the same as Recce tactics in a Recce Vehicle.

Basically, the only transferable skills that Reserve Armour have to Reg Armour are mostly those that are not vehicle related.

 

[X-mo-1979]

If there is a need to train our reserve armoured recce troops for convoy escort / route recces / etc... should we then re-role those units so that they can actively train to do that very job?  Equip them with the basic gear they would need AND Give meaning to their existence?

Convoy escorts are not only a RCAC deal.MSE,Infantry...the list can go on and on.
I've waited a few days to really think about your question,to try to put it in a way as not to offend anyone.Our reserve counterpart has rarely deployed as augmentee's to a recce sqn (I recall 1 driver) and has never deployed as a tank crew.

They are deploying in their largest numbers as D&S PLATOONS.
They have to complete DP1 even if they have done a reserve DP1.Which really doesn't make sense.If we are going to pump money in to these units for a DP1,lets give them a trade in which they can be deployed as.The cost of making an Light infantry soldier would be comparable to training a soldier to be a reserve recce crewman.At least this gives the army more flexability in how they are employed,and gives more positions/opportunity to the reservist.At least when he finishes a DP1 infantry he is employable,and the soldier would not have to waste time being trained again.

Another thought I had.This may be right out of it..I'm sure someone will tell me why. ;D

Make each reserve unit a echelon.When a unit deploys to the field they could deploy with them providing running replens,battle resupplies etc.
A couple MLVW's,a FAR,and a few old versions of M113's would all that would be needed.Keep them in a central depot and units could draw them when they deploy.Use the current vehicles (G-wagons) to pratice drill's,set up RR etc.
Suddenly they sort of sound like a armd service battalion...

I really do not see the practicality of the Armd res.
As CSA said:

Which really means that the Res RCAC offers no tangible benefits over any other Res arm as all soldiers now learn VP, map reading and C6, while theory of gunnery is nice but in the Res RCAC, unless a soldier has attended AGS, is not covered.  Meaning, as I've said in other posts, the Army should poo or get off the porcelain because maintaining a whole Res Corps, chain of command, unit perpetuation and all the resource requirements it takes, just so they can have "Black Beret LCF" but offer no unique skill benefit to armour-specific deployment or other tasks makes no sense whatsoever.

Political reasoning and old boys' lobbying groups (Reserves 2000, anyone) aside, we should either do this right or not at all.  Let's stop kidding ourselves that we, the institutional CF and the DND have the funding, will and wherewithal to play the "Reserve Armour Game" on the scale of the US, other NATO allies or Australia. 

Armour has no "light" or "dismounted" option like its Infantry, Artillery and Engineer brother combat arms have.

The emperor has no clothes.

 

[Rowshambow]

Actually Xmo, you are slightly out of your lanes on this one, some reservists have and currently are deployed as tank crews, C Sqn has a few, and if you remember a few months ago a Reservist was killed, working with c-sqn (albeit he was an arv gunner) there are still a few tank driving reservist (I know, I was there when they were on course) but you are right in the regards that they didn't learn that skill in the reserves, they had to come to the Strats and get put on the course to be employed while on tour!

 

[X-mo-1979]

Actually Xmo, you are slightly out of your lanes on this one, some reservists have and currently are deployed as tank crews, C Sqn has a few, and if you remember a few months ago a Reservist was killed, working with c-sqn (albeit he was an arv gunner) there are still a few tank driving reservist (I know, I was there when they were on course) but you are right in the regards that they didn't learn that skill in the reserves, they had to come to the Strats and get put on the course to be employed while on tour!

Really?I thought a few had been in the eshelon,(T-lav etc )but I thought the leopard crews were all regular force.I did hear it was made up of 6 armd regiments.I've had friends on both of the last tank roto's and they told me they were esch only.

Learn something new everyday I guess.

Thanks I 'll have to pass that on to a few people.

 

[Franko]

Actually Xmo, you are slightly out of your lanes on this one, some reservists have and currently are deployed as tank crews

I'm sure that someone from the LDSH will be by momentarily to either confirm this or deny it.

Talked to someone in the know and there are none to his knowledge crewing any panzers.

Regards

 

[geo]

In current ROTO, one Armoured reservist from the Calgary Regt was killed Sept 25th while repairing a track on a Leo.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/09/25/afghanistan-soldier.html

Cpl. Nathan Hornburg, a 24-year-old reservist from the King's Own Calgary Regiment, was hit by a mortar shell Monday afternoon as he was fixing a track that had fallen off the Leopard tank in the Panjwaii district, about 47 kilometres west of Kandahar City.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Yes, but as stated above, RIP to the soldier, he wasn't part of a Leopard crew - he was a crewman on the ARV - also an important job.  Also, he was a member of the King's Own Calgary Regiment - a small distinction, but one the Calgary Tanks did earn in blood at Dieppe.

Anyhow, as my argument above stated, if fellows have to be brought in and given full PCF courses to deploy, then, FF Worthington rolling in his grave notwithstanding, why do they have to be black hat reservists - why couldn't we take a guy in from the Loyal Eddies or Hasty P or RNBR or 37 Fd Regt and teach them to drive a Leopard 2?  The training bill and time would be the same.

Back to my previous - we are not playing the Armour Reserve game to win - we should either start or finish instead of dallying about halfheartedly.  Onesies and twosies deployed here and there in echelon positions does not justification for multiple Armd Res regiments make...

I think we've hijacked this thread, so I'll stop posting on this topic any more - mods feel free to prune and split as you like but I think it's a road we've been down before....

 

 

[blacktriangle]

I'm an armd reservist, and I've come to realize there is nothing armoured about my job...  ;D I did some admin work for a while but never got officially badged as an RMS clerk. That was the highlight of my career so far.

I'd sign up right now to take a Coyote/Leopard course, and I'd go overseas if I could. I'd much rather be integrated on ex's with the RCD/LDSH or use their vehicles on a weekend, then train on a vehicle that I've been told I'll never use overseas, and train for a role I'll never do.

I can dream, right?

 

[MikeL]

Another role for Armoured Reservists from what I've seen is Bison CP drivers. I'm pretty sure a guy I know is a OC's Driver with the Strats right now, have to confirm it with him next time I see him though. But yea from the majority or Armour Reservists I've seen they are mainly tasked with ARV crew an Convoy Escort.