Armoured Recce Vehicle

[recce4life]

I have tested and used all vehicles that are to be used in recce even the ATV.  I don't know how many times I have been asked by officers and commanders on what do I think of the vehicles.  My answer is as follows:  The vehicles are good but not good enough the vehicle that has a chance for mounted recce is the G but that isn't good enough.  The vehicle I would love to see is something with a lower profile and wider wheel base then the G.  It has to be monouverable and whip through the soft sands of Aghanistan.  I have a vehicle in mind the DPV that the Seals use.  http://www.chenowth.com/DesertPatrolVehicle.php

We don't need anything fancy to fight battles, Recce does not attack.  We need something fast that can't be seen from a distance.  Get in and get out.

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry recce4life, but a quick look at your credentials and I don't have to say that I agree with you.  You don't have that much experience, nor do I think you have actually done all you claim.  Please stay in your lanes.

 

[Trooper Hale]

...And with that, someone ruins the fun for everyone. I was really enjoying reading through all this, but out comes a poser and kills the fun. I suppose its life isnt it.

 

[solidarnosc]

Reviving a somewhat old thread

Here is (yet) another design for a light patrol vehicle which looks like it has most of what "we" might want for a recce vehicle, mud or otherwise: IGUANA FV4, the new 4x4 armoured vehicle developed by Sabiex Engineers. http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/armoured/sabiex/

The image shows a 4 X 4 vehicle with the requisite "mine proof" shape; reasonable amounts of crew visibility without being an SUV, a cupola of some sort which could be replaced with a sensor or RWS, and a crew compartment for up to four soldiers (4+2 total).

This provides the basis for a fairly extensive range of recce vehicles; a basic mud recce vehicle with room for 72 hr supplies carried internally (4 man crew so you have the option of throwing a patrolman out when needed); a CP/RRB vehicle and even a sensor platform, with the rear crew compartment replaced with the mast or mast kit and operator station. More specialized versions like NBC recce can be developed as well, using the room in the back for the sensors and operator stations.

The best hope is this is inexpensive enough to purchase a large number for economy of scale, critical mass for training, TTP development and deployment and so on. If doctrine is changed to put convoy escort into the hands of the MP's or a Force Protection Platoon of the TPT COY; then even more could be purchased and greater economies afforded (not to mention freeing up more patrols for finding the bad guys).

Some information for people interested.


A brochure in English

http://www.sofema-groupe.com/espace_telechargement_fr/espace_libre/doc_groupe_fr/sabiex/PlaquSabiex-A.pdf

In portugese with some pics.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/noticia/iguana/iguana.pdf

Some pictures with what looks like a recce version with sensors

http://armyreco.ifrance.com/europe/belgique/vehicules_a_roues/iguana/iguana_belgique_description.htm

Version with Arrows weapon system.

Short movie

www.defesanet.com.br/videos/iguana.mpg

 

[a_majoor]

Mobile, protected, amphibious....what more could we want? 

I would like the black hats to weigh in with an informed opinion, to my eyes this looks very good and should be a contender for the new mud recce vehicle program (if it is still trundling along), but then again......

 

[geo]

hmmm.... bottom looks flat.... suceptible to mines and IEDs

 

[George Wallace]

Looks more like an 'Armoured Bus' that would come in handy Transporting Troops from the Rear to the Front, where they would mount IFV's.  That or for 'Police'.  As a Recce vehicle, it looks like it would be quite susceptible to enemy fire and difficult to conceal.  I'll have to look at it a bit more, but I don't like the 'enclosed' cab that will take away the SA that Recce needs.  EYES and EARS have been cut down to only EYES, if you know what I mean.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Looks like a modern Saxon

 

[solidarnosc]

hmmm.... bottom looks flat.... suceptible to mines and IEDs

Upside down look of the Iguana. I don't know which version. Page 16


http://www.crif.be/uploadedFiles/MEDIA/PUBLICATIONS/WTCM-CRIF-Report-2003-FR.pdf

 

[geo]

Looking at that page 16 picture - scale model.... also, bottom still looks pretty flat.  Beveled a wee bit on the side but, it's flat with notches & grooves for wheels, differentials, etc.....

This is not a V shaped monocoque welded steel hull designed to withstand 2 TM57 mines detonating simultaneously. (as the RG31 has)

http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/RG-31.htm

look at the second picture down..... blast area is projected up and out.....

 

[solidarnosc]

Looking at that page 16 picture - scale model.... also, bottom still looks pretty flat.  Beveled a wee bit on the side but, it's flat with notches & grooves for wheels, differentials, etc.....

This is not a V shaped monocoque welded steel hull designed to withstand 2 TM57 mines detonating simultaneously. (as the RG31 has)

http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/RG-31.htm

look at the second picture down..... blast area is projected up and out.....

I suppose this was the FV270. The FV290 offers more protection against mines.Stanag leve 2B/3A Don't know how that compares with others. Just looking at the picture. The Iguana maybe offers more protection against direct fire. Less windows, especially in the front.  More sloped armour. Iguana also offers amphibous capability. Sabiex sold a license to a South-African company.

Looks a bit messy. This is FV270.

 

[a_majoor]

The brochure says quite clearly this is "mine proof", although I may have missed the STANAG leve of protection.

Based on the picture with a man standing by it, it isn't "too" big, but it is larger than a Lynx. George, if a Lynx gives you "ears", why would an Iguana not? It has a cupola and several roof hatches in the crew compartment.  Just asking.

 

[George Wallace]

The brochure says quite clearly this is "mine proof", although I may have missed the STANAG leve of protection.

Based on the picture with a man standing by it, it isn't "too" big, but it is larger than a Lynx. George, if a Lynx gives you "ears", why would an Iguana not? It has a cupola and several roof hatches in the crew compartment.  Just asking.

I learned very early in my Recce career that SA inside a jeep with a windshield up, tarped and with doors on it to keep the elements out, did not work.  Remove the tarp and doors and lower the windshield and you did many things.  Your SA was improved 500+%.  The amount of reflective glass was reduced to nearly zero.  You could use all your senses.  You were miserable in the cold and wet.  With this, as an amoured 'truck', I would say that the crew would most likely have a tendency to remain inside.

I have nothing against the cupola.  I don't think you would have many troops hanging out of hatches if it were employed as a Armoured Recce vehicle.  It would probably make a good armoured car or Recce vehicle for a para-military force.  It looks like it could do a similar role as the British Saxon armoured bus and may be a good vehicle for our Log guys to have for convoys and resupply runs. 

Tactically, any vehicle that has too much reflective glass is not a good idea.  Size and shape are another factor.  Although this doesn't appear to be a large vehicle (I hope that guy wasn't as big as your Arthur  ;D), it is still a very defined box shape (looking back on the M113). 

I know that there are better vehicles out there for the Armour Recce role.  This one is too much like a wheeled APC.

 

[a_majoor]

Fair enough assessment. WO trying to resurrect a Lynx (JC would have to get involved, and I think He is a bit busy); is there an existing vehicle which is on the market or avail which would meet Canada's needs?

Of course besides the ideal vehicle which is in a catalogue, is there a "good enough" vehicle which is compatible with Canadian doctrine, logistics etc?

 

[George Wallace]

Of course besides the ideal vehicle which is in a catalogue, is there a "good enough" vehicle which is compatible with Canadian doctrine, logistics etc?

That is a very good question.  We'll have to decide if we want Tracks or Wheels or a combination of both?  How much armour do we want on it?  Does it need to be amphibious?  What size crew should it have?  What wpns should it have?  Do we need to add on a Surv Suite? 

One tracked vehicle, right off the shelf, that is small, light, and can be heavily armed is the Wiesel II.  The French have some small wheeled Recce vehicles, as well as large.  The Germans and Dutch have larger wheeled vehicles for Recce.  There are a lot of vehicles out there.  Now we have to decide if we are going to do Mud Recce as well as Surv, and are we going to purchase enough for both Regs and Res.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

The Wiesel I would make a fantastic vehicle to give to the Reserve Armour regiments.  Both variants, have one of each in every patrol. 

Like George says, true wheeled recce vehicles, like the Ferret, seem to be rare.  Most have roofs and other non desirable traits.  Ah, the heck with wheels.

Let's buy Wiesel I for the Armour reserve, Wiesel 2 for the Infantry, and the CV 90 family for the regs.  Have one CMBG equipped with nothing but tracks, and the other two with wheels.  Better yet, let's have a twenty year plan to recruit enough people for a fourth BG.  Then we can have two wheeled and two tracked BG's, to meet most of our needs.

Oops, got carried away.  sorry for the (almost) hijack. 

 

[solidarnosc]

That is a very good question.  We'll have to decide if we want Tracks or Wheels or a combination of both?  How much armour do we want on it?  Does it need to be amphibious?  What size crew should it have?  What wpns should it have?  Do we need to add on a Surv Suite? 

One tracked vehicle, right off the shelf, that is small, light, and can be heavily armed is the Wiesel II.  The French have some small wheeled Recce vehicles, as well as large.  The Germans and Dutch have larger wheeled vehicles for Recce.  There are a lot of vehicles out there.  Now we have to decide if we are going to do Mud Recce as well as Surv, and are we going to purchase enough for both Regs and Res.

I wouldn't call the Fennek large.

 

[George Wallace]

I wouldn't call the Fennek large.

Then you don't call the Hummer or the Dingo large either?

 

[skydiver]

Greetings All..
Has anyone ever seen the Italian "Puma" family?
I don't know much about them but the shape and size are about right. Four whelled and six wheeled variants, boat shaped hull, room for dismounts. Built to hang out with their Centauros I believe.

Scouts Out

Doog

 

[spoon man]

IMHO, from the picture the Puma looks analogous to the LAV