Arizona Congresswoman shot

[57Chevy]

This is far from politics


MAP: A Guide To Recent Vandal Attacks On Democrats (UPDATED)

Smashed windows. Threats of violence. A slashed gas line. Reports of vandalism and threats against Democrats have been stacking up over the past few days.

Majority Leader Steny Hoyer today estimated that 10 members had been threatened over the health care vote.

So just how bad is it out there?

We decided to make a map of all the instances of vandalism and serious threats against Democrats. Check it out.......
At the link
                      ____________________________________________________________-
Photos:
From the article....dated March 24, 2010
Palin Uses Crosshairs To Identify Dems Who Voted For Health Care Reform

                          (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

 

[a_majoor]

Putting "progressives" in quotations is the silliest passive-aggressive insult I've seen. Give people a snarky label, and you can discount their opinions without discussing them. Also: Socialist, fascist, communist, liberal, right-wing, etc.

Actually, we are discussing them. Their self proclaimed label is "progressive", although the evidence really points to their words and actions as being awesomely stupid. Now their narrative in this case has been exposed as a lie, they are reaping the consequences.

 

[Redeye]

Actually, we are discussing them. Their self proclaimed label is "progressive", although the evidence really points to their words and actions as being awesomely stupid. Now their narrative in this case has been exposed as a lie, they are reaping the consequences.

This may shock you, but those "progressives" think the words and actions of conservatives are "awesomely stupid".

Trying to point fingers from one camp to another is ridiculous.  First watching one side try to walk back on its rhetorical devices (like the hilarious "surveyor's transit" defence") and now playing "tu quoque" is not helping any sort of realistic discussion on the degree to which the state of civil discourse has decayed in the United States.  Who said what doesn't really matter as much as that while anyone is free to say what they want, words matter and with that right of free speech comes responsibility.  And that applies to all.

 

[a_majoor]

Fail again.

It is the Progressives who first came out attempting to pin blame for the shooting on the conservative/TEA party movement and the GOP, and now the same Progressives who are trying to hide/deny/bury what they said earlier while attempting to claim a moral equivalency with the political right.

As for corrosive political discourse, there are plenty of examples going back to the founding of the American Republic, with particularly heated periods during the War of 1812, American Civil War, the 1920's when there was a great push to impose Socialism on the United States (look up the "Wobbly" movement, for example), the Great Depression, the 1960's and throughout the Administration of President George W Bush.

If the Sherrif had been silent and done his job of investigating the shooting, rather than speculating on the cause (with no evidence whatsoever), and the media had not run with this, attempting to smear figures from the conservative and TEA party movement, then this would be treated as the tragedy that it is, and not a huge political dustup. Of course, having created this rucus, they will be the ones wearing the consequences, not the people they attempted to smear.

 

[mariomike]

MSNBC
Details and timeline on the medical response.:
http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/15/5843330-the-emergency-response-in-tucson-timeline-shows-ambulance-delays

 

[a_majoor]

"Civility" apparently only flows in one direction:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/wehner/387145

PETER WEHNER: A CIVILITY TEST FOR LIBERALS:

    A week after President Obama’s stirring remarks at the Tucson memorial service comes an important Civility Test for liberals.

  ABC’s Jonathan Karl reports that Democratic Representative Steve Cohen went to the well of the House and compared what Republicans are saying on health care to the work of the infamous Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels.

    “They say it’s a government takeover of health care, a big lie just like Goebbels,” Cohen said. “You say it enough, you repeat the lie, you repeat the lie, you repeat the lie, and eventually, people believe it. Like ‘blood libel.’ That’s the same kind of thing. The Germans said enough about the Jews and the people believed it and you had the Holocaust. You tell a lie over and over again. We heard on this floor, government takeover of health care.”

    In our post-Tucson world, I’m eager to see people like E.J. Dionne Jr., Dana Milbank, and Harold Meyerson of the Washington Post; George Packer of the New Yorker; James Fallows of the Atlantic; Paul Krugman, Frank Rich, and the editorial page of the New York Times; Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, and Ed Schultz of MSNBC, and scores of other commentators and reporters all across America both publicize and condemn Representative Cohen’s slander.

    Each of them will have plenty of opportunities to do so. I hope they take advantage of it. I hope, too, that reporters ask White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs what his reaction is. And I trust President Obama, who spoke so eloquently last week about the importance of civility in our national life, has something to say about this ugly episode as well. If the president were to repudiate Mr. Cohen quickly and publicly, it would be good for him, good for politics, and good for the nation.

    But if the president and his liberal allies remain silent or criticize Cohen in the gentlest way possible, it’s only reasonable to conclude that their expressions of concern about incivility in public discourse are partisan rather than genuine, that what they care about isn’t public discourse but gamesmanship, not restoring civility but gaining power.

 

[Redeye]

Several people have already condemned Cohen's remarks.  And he has refused to apologize for them or retract them, because at the end of the day, they are in fact an apt, if perhaps not totally tasteful, description of exactly what the GOP has done in the debate on healthcare.  To anyone with a shred of intellect, he did not in fact compare any person to Nazis - but he did compare the propaganda techniques being employed by the GOP to those used very successfully by that despicable group.  And why?  Because it's correct.  Create a lie, make it big, and repeat it until people accept it as the truth.  Why do you think the GOP is consistently referring to their idiiot repeal bill by the name they chose for it, "Repealing The Job Killing Health Care Law Act"?  They want their unthinking followers to simply accept that it is job killling (and unaffordable) despite all the evidence to the contrary.  They are, in fact, using those very same tactics, and if some Democratic lawmaker is going to call them on it (just like Alan Grayson did during the original debates), then fine.  It's called "fair comment".

The great think of it is that they've just taken the House, already shown they're out of touch with "The American People" who several polls show do not want healthcare reform repealed.  They've missed the message, wasted the people's time on a bill that will not even be debated or voted on in the Senate (where it would fail).  I think this is pretty much a textbook pyrrhic victory.

In better news on the subject, apparently Rep Giffords has stood up with assistance and will soon be going into rehab, making substantial progress.  And organs donated by the young victim have saved the life of one child and the sight of another so far.  Most shockingly, even DICK CHENEY is talking about gun control (specifically high capacity magazines), which is almost unbelievable.  Good can come from tragedy, it seems.

 

[GAP]

Most shockingly, even DICK CHENEY is talking about gun control (specifically high capacity magazines), which is almost unbelievable.  Good can come from tragedy, it seems.

The criminally intent and the wackos will still get and use guns, whether they are banned, restricted, locked up, etc.. And if they can't get immediate access to a gun, they'll use a knife, baseball bat, vehicle, whatever. A lot of these changes are nothing more than feelgood stuff....

 

[Redeye]

I used to run with that argument.  However, I'm going to say I don't anymore.

I have to wonder how a deranged loner would have gotten his hands on a firearm if there was any sort of screening process he had to go through.  I suspect it would have at the very least been a lot harder and that may have been a deterrent if not a complete showstopper.

A knife, bat, vehicle would have made it a lot hard to to kill 6 people and wound 20 at once as well.  A 33 round pistol magazine made it relatively easy.  I can think of no legitimate reason to own one.  The fact that a bystander was able to disarm him when he finally went to change mags made me rethink my "magazine sizes are irrelevant" argument as well.

I'm not suggesting that all firearms should be banned - I'm a gun owner and a recreational shooter.  I just don't see a problem with reasonable controls on what has the potential to create very tragic situations.

The criminally intent and the wackos will still get and use guns, whether they are banned, restricted, locked up, etc.. And if they can't get immediate access to a gun, they'll use a knife, baseball bat, vehicle, whatever. A lot of these changes are nothing more than feelgood stuff....

 

[a_majoor]

There are a lot of questions to ask about how effective "screening" is, since the shooter apparently had dealing s with law enforcement before, and was under 21 years of age when he and his friends were out in the desert shooting with that firearm; both negative indicators for owning a handgun in the United States (handgun ownership is restricted to people age 21 and older).

This is very much similar to the impaired nature of the debate here in Canada; handguns have been highly restricted since the 1930's, yet are still used to commit crimes and the call is for still more regulation/restriction despite the fact handguns have been tightly restricted for 80 years. We also see how Mayor Miller's banning of gun clubs and harassment of legitimate gun owners in Toronto have worked to reduce gun crime (i.e. not at all), so the empirical evidence is that restriction and regulation is of very limited value.

An interesting piece of evidence in the opposite direction is Switzerland, where all male citizens must have an automatic weapon and 200 rounds of ammunition at home by law; yet gun crime is so rare that the few instances create shockwaves among the citizens of Switzerland.

 

[Redeye]

An interesting piece of evidence in the opposite direction is Switzerland, where all male citizens must have an automatic weapon and 200 rounds of ammunition at home by law; yet gun crime is so rare that the few instances create shockwaves among the citizens of Switzerland.

Actually, that's patently false.  While all members of the Swiss military (which is virtually every adult male) keep their issued service rifle at home, possession of ammunition for them is illegal.  Until recently, they were issued a sealed box of 50 rounds which had to be presented for inspection on request.  This has been discontinued.  To fire their service rifle, they could go do any range (and it's interesting that they don't bother casing their rifles, when I was there I was walking through a train station along side a guy coming home from a weekend ex in civvies with his SIG 550 slung over his shoulder), but they must purchase ammunition (other than what they get issued annually to qualify) and use it at the range.

The more guns = less crime argument is silly.  You are 4.5x more likely, according to the most recent stats I read, to be killed by a firearm in the United States than in Canada.  Gun proliferation is the most logical explanation.

As for Miller in Toronto, yes, I agree with you that his anti-gun efforts were symbolic and stupid.  However, I don't think that your claim about restriction/regulation holds, given that a large number of the handguns used in crimes appear to be smuggled or stolen from legitimate owners.  I can only think of one recent high profile shooting where a licensed gun owner killed someone (other than a domestic dispute) with a legal gun, the shooting of John O'Keefe in Toronto by Edward Paredes - a fine example of why Glocks and bars don't mix.

(edited to fix two spelling mistakes that were annoying me)

 

[Edward Campbell]

This page is in danger of descending into either:

Deconstructing "Progressive" thought; or

The Great Gun Control Debate.

Relatively "free" gun ownership - which includes idiots and the criminally insane being armed - is not going away in the USA, nor is it likely to appear in Canada.

"Progressive" and "stupid" are, like truth and beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

I am pleased to hear that the congresswoman is on the road to recovery; we can only wish the best for her and her family. Equally we can only offer condolences, not explanations, to the families f those killed and wounded. This is not an important or even significant political event  it is a small, all too human tragedy which is totally devoid of any greater "meaning."


Edit:
My apologies for the wonky url formatting; I have coreceted it again and again in the word processor (Open Office 3.2) but is still comes out wrong.

With a little help from my friends, as Prime Minister Harper might say sing - specifically from Journeyman, I fixed the wonky links. Thanks to 57Chevy, too. The formatting was correct in Open Office Writer but for some reason I do not (nor care to) understand it got corrupted in the copy/paste process. But since I use Open Office rather than MS whatever I cannot blame everything on Bill Gates.

 

[57Chevy]

E.R. (in your post)
      After, quote "The Great Gun Control Debate." add the following to close the new url ----> [/url]
without any spacing....it should work.
better still..... ;D
The Great Gun Control Debate.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This page is in danger of descending into either:

Deconstructing "Progressive" thought[url=http://; or

[url=http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28692.0.html]The Great Gun Control Debate]; or

[url=http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28692.0.html]The Great Gun Control Debate.

Relatively "free" gun ownership - which includes idiots and the criminally insane being armed - is not going away in the USA, nor is it likely to appear in Canada.

"Progressive" and "stupid" are, like truth and beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

I am pleased to hear that the congresswoman is on the road to recovery; we can only wish the best for her and her family. Equally we can only offer condolences, not explanations, to the families f those killed and wounded. This is not an important or even significant political event  it is a small, all too human tragedy which is totally devoid of any greater "meaning."



My apologies for the wonky url formatting; I have coreceted it again and again in the word processor (Open Office 3.2) but is still comes out wrong.

No amount of registration or rules will stop a determined crackpot\ criminal from securing what they want to do the deed. Not unless you outlaw every drill press, lathe and mill in the country. Registration, regulation and prohibition is a straw man to detract from the fact that the authorities allowed this loon to run around. That is the boiled down crux of the problem, not gun, ammo or accessory control. People control is the problem.

Now:

Edward is right. If you want to argue gun control go to the right thread. This isn't it.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[57Chevy]

Giffords' family search for rehabilitation facility

Family and friends of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords have searched the country for the ideal convalescent facility as the congresswoman nears her transition from recovery to rehabilitation 11 days after being shot through the head.

"They have been looking all across the nation at rehab facilities that are best equipped ... for the type of injuries she has," Giffords spokesman Mark Kimble said, though he declined to confirm a CNN report that she would be transferred to a Texas facility on Friday.

Giffords remains in serious condition at Tucson's University Medical Center. Her neurosurgeon has deemed her recovery thus far "miraculous."

Dr. Michael Lemole, who operated on Giffords the day of the shooting, said Monday that her transfer from the hospital to rehabilitation will be the lawmaker's next milestone.

"That's her graduation," Lemole said.

article continues at link.....

Photo:
U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) is pictured with her husband NASA Astronaut Mark Kelly in this November 2007 photograph from their wedding made available by the office of Rep. Giffords for Reuters on January 12, 2011.

Credit: Reuters/U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' office/Handout

                              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

 

[Redeye]

Her progress is amazing, apparently.  They've been using an iPad to see how her motor skills and cognitive function are, apparently she has been demonstrating far more than they would have ever expected.  That is the wonder of the whole thing.  She has a long road ahead, but it seems like there's a lot of good happening for her, and that trumps any politics.  It remains to be seen if she'll be able to return to work, but one never knows.

Giffords' family search for rehabilitation facility

Family and friends of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords have searched the country for the ideal convalescent facility as the congresswoman nears her transition from recovery to rehabilitation 11 days after being shot through the head.

"They have been looking all across the nation at rehab facilities that are best equipped ... for the type of injuries she has," Giffords spokesman Mark Kimble said, though he declined to confirm a CNN report that she would be transferred to a Texas facility on Friday.

Giffords remains in serious condition at Tucson's University Medical Center. Her neurosurgeon has deemed her recovery thus far "miraculous."

Dr. Michael Lemole, who operated on Giffords the day of the shooting, said Monday that her transfer from the hospital to rehabilitation will be the lawmaker's next milestone.

"That's her graduation," Lemole said.

article continues at link.....

Photo:
U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) is pictured with her husband NASA Astronaut Mark Kelly in this November 2007 photograph from their wedding made available by the office of Rep. Giffords for Reuters on January 12, 2011.

Credit: Reuters/U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' office/Handout

                              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

 

[observor 69]

Giffords arriving in Houston
Follow Congresswoman's journey to rehab hospital here
http://www.chron.com/

2nd Life Flight helicopter lands at Memorial Hermann
http://blogs.chron.com/newswatch/

 

[cupper]

Good news just in.

Congresswoman Giffords just showed up on the House floor this evening.

Not sure if she cast a vote on the Debt Ceiling bill, but was definitely a major milestone in her recovery.

UPDATE:

She was present to cast a vote in support of the Debt Ceiling increase

Final count was 269 to 161.

 

[57Chevy]

A very nice video.

She's quite the patriot.


Gabrielle Gabby Giffords DNC Pledge of Allegiance Democratic National Convention
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxUY-3qDa9I

 

[57Chevy]

This page is in danger of descending into either:

Deconstructing "Progressive" thought; or

The Great Gun Control Debate.

:nod: and shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Gabrielle Giffords has put the National Rifle Association squarely in her sights as she unveiled a major initiative for tougher gun laws.

Shot politician Gabrielle Giffords takes on US gun lobby
09 Jan
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/shot-politician-gabrielle-giffords-takes-on-us-gun-lobby/story-e6frg6so-1226550025295