Are We Wasting Our Effort?

[big bad john]

Iam not intolerant  of those who serve , rather Iam frustrated that our military is involved in yet another not clearly defined mission .  I think this shows the little regard the government has for the military when you place someone in a situation without giving them the proper equipment and a clear goal . It appears we are being  used as window dressing to gain favor with the americans . Hell they were a route cause  of the problems that plague Afghanistan  but yet now it is our problem . If you make a mess clean it up.

I could better understand where you are speaking from if you filled out your profile a little more fully.

 

[the 48th regulator]

How is it not clearly defined?  What would be proper equipment?  And the goal you speak of, what would you suggest we should do with Afghanistan?

And I would like to know, as a former soldier that was injured, how do you feel that you are speaking on behalf of people like me?  Or my Family?

This could be interesting if you elaborate, as opposed to throwing out caustic statements.

dileas

tess

 

[Armymatters]

Hiller did warn us that we will take casualties with this mission, as it isn't Kabul anymore; we are now heading into the heart of where the Taliban got their support from. And we have to do this mission in order for Afghanistan's stability, and world stability. We are giving our troops in Afghanistan the best equipment we can afford for them, but unfortunately, there is a point where all the money in the world will not prevent a casualty.

 

[a_majoor]

Censorship? Not really. This is what Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit) has posted:

ANOTHER UPDATE: Mister Snitch asks: "At what point did we become obliged to put up with obnoxious houseguests? Why would anyone care whether some ass thinks they are "engaging in censorship" because someone's attempt to derail a train of thought was moved off a blog? If the argument's good, the commenter can start his/her own blog for free, and do the work needed to get the word out. If the argument stinks, why is it smelling up our blog? Don't our other readers have ofalctory rights?"

posted at 01:27 PM by Glenn Reynolds Permalink

Sounds like a fine way to run a Blog or Forum to me.

 

[from darkness lite]

I am only going to enter this "debate" once. Cannonfodder, I am on the ground NOW in Kandahar City and have been for the last 6 months.  I know/knew everyone of our casualties, and I've run the same roads.  We all know the dangers (we don't like them, but we know them) but we do our job.  I'm not sure what kind of officers you've served under, but a good number of them here have actually impressed me, particularly when I compare them with some I've served with in the distant past.
Do I feel like I'm wasting my time over here, and that I wonder what my purpose is?  Absolutely not!!!!  Would I, and the majority of my colleagues come back?  Absolutely!!  I've seen remarkable progress here and I'm not about to let a few (and it is a few!) f**k heads screw this country up again.  Bottom line, I didn't sign up to be a "peacekeeper".

Cutting and running now would be a complete waste of the blood already shed for this country.

FDL

PS.  As for your American comments, I have a lot of respect for the US folks I've met here.  Hope to serve with them again

 

[combatcamera]

Because of the Ground Designation rules. Remeber, you can't move over ground that is not designated without a mine resistant veh. Nor can you drive, walk or anything else until it is designated...kind hard on a cbt patrol. The Nyala is the only mine resistant veh in our fleet in Afghanistan.

Stick with pictures, Frank.

Armymedic,

I'm talking about the "timing" of the Nyala announcement here, and the fact that they are sending over so many (43) after the incident.  I was in Afghanistan for the TAT in 2003.  I was there in 2004, in 2005, and I'm going again in March, 2006 - so I have a pretty good idea of the place.  Even driven through the "badlands" behind the Russian Officer's Mess in Kabul in "Toyota 11" when civvy pattern vehicles were an accepted way of getting around in 2003.  I felt safest in the Nyala though.  Too bad we only had one back then.

Stick with handing out the Cepacol.

 

[vonGarvin]

Armymedic,

I'm talking about the "timing" of the Nyala announcement here, and the fact that they are sending over so many (43) after the incident.  I was in Afghanistan for the TAT in 2003.  I was there in 2004, in 2005, and I'm going again in March, 2006 - so I have a pretty good idea of the place.  Even driven through the "badlands" behind the Russian Officer's Mess in Kabul in "Toyota 11" when civvy pattern vehicles were an accepted way of getting around in 2003.  I felt safest in the Nyala though.  Too bad we only had one back then.

Stick with handing out the Cepacol.

Hi Combatcamera
I too was on the TAT in 2003: with the D and S Coy.  Anyway, I digress.
The "new" nyalas have been in the works for some time, and it's probably coming to light moreso now due to last week's attack.  Anyway, the Nyala will have a Kongsberg RWS with a .50 cal on it, so it's more than a mine proofing vehicle, but rather a mine resisitant patrol vehicle.  I think it's being called an "Armoured Patrol Vehicle".  And fastball ain't the word!  VERY fast ball? 
Anyway, best of luck in March: keep your head up and watch your six
Hauptmann out.

 

[Jungle]

I'm talking about the "timing" of the Nyala announcement here, and the fact that they are sending over so many (43) after the incident.

So, according to your logic, we should cancel the order ?? Yeah, it is very negative if it looks like the Nyala order is in reaction to suicide attacks...  :
It is sad that we are finally using those "lessons-learned" and getting mission-adapted eqpt.
About the censorship comment, do you also think that speed limits on highways are restricting your freedoms ?? There are rules on this site, as with everything else. Read them. If you don't agree with them, you are free to go away...  8)

 

[Armymedic]

Stick with handing out the Cepacol.

Touche, Frank, Touche, :argument:

But you do know that current (last 3 months) events have nothing to do with the aquisition of these vehs (as opposed to the iltis/LUVW fiasco). Don't suggest otherwise as people here may just take that as gospel.

 

[Armymedic]

Iam not intolerant  of those who serve , rather Iam frustrated that our military is involved in yet another not clearly defined mission .  I think this shows the little regard the government has for the military when you place someone in a situation without giving them the proper equipment and a clear goal .

Then on Monday when you vote, do not vote for the party that sends us on such missions without the equipment we need. They have only been doing for 13 yrs. That my friend is how democracy works.

It appears we are being  used as window dressing to gain favor with the americans . Hell they were a route cause  of the problems that plague Afghanistan  but yet now it is our problem . If you make a mess clean it up.

While the window dressign comment might just be correct, it was not the USA who is the root cause of  those problems. Afghanistan has been a speed bump on the roads for invading armies since the time of Alexander. The current problems are mostly rooted in the British occupations in the 1800 when they arbitrarily drew the countries boundies lines in agreement with the Russians without considering ethinic diversity of the region. Those problems continued up thru the mid 1900's and continued past the loss of the King...then it all went bad.

Blaming the US for the world problems is the short sighted, populist, TV watching view, many of the issues we are still dealing with today are reprecussions of decisions made 1 or 2 centuries ago.

 

[KevinB]

:tsktsk:
Cannonfodder due to the code of conduct here I wont offer what I think of you.

But

 

[combatcamera]

Armymedic,

I'm glad you took that as the joke it was intended to be. Love the animated Gif ..... Good one!  

All I'm saying is maybe these purchases should be thought about ahead of time - before bad stuff happens.

 

[combatcamera]

So, according to your logic, we should cancel the order ?? Yeah, it is very negative if it looks like the Nyala order is in reaction to suicide attacks... 
It is sad that we are finally using those "lessons-learned" and getting mission-adapted eqpt.
About the censorship comment, do you also think that speed limits on highways are restricting your freedoms ?? There are rules on this site, as with everything else. Read them. If you don't agree with them, you are free to go away... 

No, not at all.  What I AM questioning is why we are making these purchase announcements so late in the game?  If you saw the Reuters pics of the incident - the G-Wagon was opened up like using a can-opener.  I'm really surprised anybody survived at all.  It's the same scenario with the Sgt Short/Cpl Berenfinger incident.  Geez, didn't we get the friggin' G-Wagon's right after that, eh?

 

[Sandbag]

combatcamera

Please don't confuse PAFF "spin-doctoring" for the media with when and why we purchased these vehicles.  These vehs were identified well before this event, specifically to get them into theatre based on recces by commanders and their recommendations/needs.  What you should be lobbying for is more money so we can buy more of them or a replacement armoured patrol vehicle.  The bottom line is that it takes time to build, and they are not built in Canada, nor are we necessarily the most important customer.  (Money drives IMHO) In this case the NYALA are going right from factory to theatre, a first I believe and a good thing.  Can we use more?  Of Course (for those of you listening that can influence our budget!)

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

We have been studying the IED threat very hard for some time now and will continue to do so.  Armoured vehicles are certainly part of the solution, and we can expect to see continual improvements in that area.  Bear in mind, however, that the enemy is adaptive and nothing offers absolute protection.  Tactics, techniques and procedures must also be studied and employed as well.

 

[Meatpuppet]

Alright...Last time i was on here i was bitching about swearing to the queen...but the bottom line is..they are there..so they gots to cover oneanother....but here its a diff story...Cannon is right about one thing...we have our own issues here we need to deal with...not hide them with sum forgien hero thing.This is anglo against the world...same old crap..diff decade.But dont get me wrong...Ill back up my own...but IED's have no orders nor do they get scared...the world doesnt fight convent anymore...they fight dirty...cause its all about winning isnt it?....I belive Canada has been to isolated for far to long...we need our asses kicked big time or maybe not....but in need of sum serious experiance in wars...not enough veterns leading these guys....also..remember if britian is involved in something...we must also be involved...Like Iraq if the conservatives win..ahahaha...then you can be all small town frozzen heros you wanna be....To the families of those soldeirs that had to get fked up like that cause a IED....i,m truly sorry..."your son was a inspiration to all of us and a fine soldier"......man Canada needs it vietnam...wake up time...cheers.... God bless Canada..may she shine once again.

 

[combatcamera]

Sandbag,

Again, my point is the actual "purchases" should have been made WELL before any mission of this type.  Of course they take time and money.  Try selling your argument to the families of the injured soldiers or dead diplomat and see how far it flies.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

All armies have difficulties against the IED threat.  Not to be an apologist, but new equipment takes time.  I rode around Kabul in an SUV, but we had made adjustments to our TTPs based on the attack on the Germans right before our roto.  The next roto had armoured GWagons.  The upcoming rotos will have the new patrol vehicles.  To be fair, we actually have comparatively good equipment for this threat when you look at other Western armies.

 

[Cannonfodder]

   More  Nyalas is a start but it is treating the symptoms not the source of the problem . Has anyone thought about purchasing weapons from the combatants ? . Kind of goes against  military logic but these are desperate acts conducted by desperate people . If you give them hope and a means to provide for there families they are less likely to become terrorists . Becoming an aggressor will only make you appear as a source of there problems . Yeah you are kind of rewarding the beligerants  but you can rapidly stabilize the situation . Say a hundred US dollars for an assault rifle or 15 for a grenade, hell you dont even have to give money commodities will due  a goat , clothing  ,firewood , heating fuel . Any sort of commodity that will alleviate suffering and will help the people regain there independance and dignity.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Cannonfodder,

Methinks you misidentify the root cause of the problem.  IMHO, purchasing weapons will not solve the problem of IEDs and attacks, because the root of the problem is not one of poverty- it is one of ideology.  A suicide bomber is demonstrably not looking for a monetary payout.

I seem to recall that this "weapons purchase" program was tried in the Balkans.  I also seem to recall that all kinds of useless, obsolete and broken weapons were turned in for cash- without reducing one act of violence.

I prefer a program where we stabilize the situation, protect the decent humble folks from the wolves while local government gets on it's feet and begins to provide services and a vibrant economy begins to take shape- hey wait a minute!  That's what we are doing!

Cheers,