Are musicians soldiers or not?
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I would like to see musicians do BMQ and SQ (for those in the army) like everyone else... (this would not go over well with CG however, who recruit musicians from universities, run them through BMQ and employ them for the summer on the hill...) at least then they could be employed in the field, as soldiers, with weapons!
My father joined the Reg Force as a bandsmen back in the 60's, and recently retired from directing a Reserve band. He came from a Reserve Regiment, where he had qualified as an infantrymen, though he was paid to be a bandsmen. He later ended up in Manitoba for Reg Force training where he completed BMQ and was qualified as a Bombadier, though his main role was to play in the band. He travelled to Cyprus, Germany and did the '67 tattoo. Though, what he always tells me is that today the Bands aren't what they used to be, therefore I can see where some of you guys are coming from. I know that various members of his last band were civilian musicians who were paid to play with the regiment, some had prior military experience and they played well and were an excellent band when I saw them on parade. That's all I know.
Michael Dorosh
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Sorry, not going to read through two pages of blather, so if this has been said already, forgive me.
Musician is a primary MOC. I was one for nine years. We qualified Shoot To Live once a year, if they could accommodate us on the range (we didn't do the rundown, consistent with our trade, so sometimes the infantry only got to shoot). This was before WARRIOR. Other than that, we concentrated on our primary focus - music and drill.
The band went en masse to the field once, though that wasn't an expectation.
In World War Two, musicians were stretcher bearers by and large, at least in pipe bands, although there were full time brass bands at various formation headquarters. These musicians had as their primary focus - music and drill.
Not really interested in seeing another 10 pages of combat arms types whining and complaining and "suggesting" that musicians do something else, blah blah blah, heard it all before. If you want a high quality band, you make music and drill the focus. There are advantages to having world class bands able to compete on the world stage. The Canadian military hasn't had a world class pipe band in decades. That isn't their focus, as there are two types of military bands - those that focus on competition, and those that concentrate on support to regimental events. Some pipe bands try to do both, but few if any get good enough to compete Grade I in the mother country.
Is a bandsman a soldier? He swears an oath, does basic training, and qualifies in a trade. He is subject to the code of service discipline and all the restrictions placed on other soldiers. So yes, he is a soldier.
Some musicians do considerably more within their units, but we had this exact same conversation in the Medics threads. Should they be with the units carrying C6s (the Argylls in Hamilton had qualified infantrymen in their band in large numbers, and the imperial Argylls' pipe band was actually a machine gun platoon in the field), or should they concentrate on learning their trade?
Canadian military pipe bands may never recover from going to all volunteer status, by and large, during the cuts in the 90s. Military bands have always relied on civilian unpaid volunteers, which has advantages and disadvantages.
Discipline and leadership in military bands are complex issues and can't even begin to be addressed here. My own personal view is that Canadian military bands are in big trouble, but that is from a pretty narrow lens here in Calgary. We had a change of command and regimental birthday parade with just three pipers on the floor. Scary. Used to be a time when the band outnumbered the Regiment.
Hopefully the increase in band establishments will reverse the trend - but don't expect civilian volunteers to go away any time soon. Nor should we want them to.
Musician is a primary MOC. I was one for nine years. We qualified Shoot To Live once a year, if they could accommodate us on the range (we didn't do the rundown, consistent with our trade, so sometimes the infantry only got to shoot). This was before WARRIOR. Other than that, we concentrated on our primary focus - music and drill.
The band went en masse to the field once, though that wasn't an expectation.
In World War Two, musicians were stretcher bearers by and large, at least in pipe bands, although there were full time brass bands at various formation headquarters. These musicians had as their primary focus - music and drill.
Not really interested in seeing another 10 pages of combat arms types whining and complaining and "suggesting" that musicians do something else, blah blah blah, heard it all before. If you want a high quality band, you make music and drill the focus. There are advantages to having world class bands able to compete on the world stage. The Canadian military hasn't had a world class pipe band in decades. That isn't their focus, as there are two types of military bands - those that focus on competition, and those that concentrate on support to regimental events. Some pipe bands try to do both, but few if any get good enough to compete Grade I in the mother country.
Is a bandsman a soldier? He swears an oath, does basic training, and qualifies in a trade. He is subject to the code of service discipline and all the restrictions placed on other soldiers. So yes, he is a soldier.
Some musicians do considerably more within their units, but we had this exact same conversation in the Medics threads. Should they be with the units carrying C6s (the Argylls in Hamilton had qualified infantrymen in their band in large numbers, and the imperial Argylls' pipe band was actually a machine gun platoon in the field), or should they concentrate on learning their trade?
Canadian military pipe bands may never recover from going to all volunteer status, by and large, during the cuts in the 90s. Military bands have always relied on civilian unpaid volunteers, which has advantages and disadvantages.
Discipline and leadership in military bands are complex issues and can't even begin to be addressed here. My own personal view is that Canadian military bands are in big trouble, but that is from a pretty narrow lens here in Calgary. We had a change of command and regimental birthday parade with just three pipers on the floor. Scary. Used to be a time when the band outnumbered the Regiment.
Hopefully the increase in band establishments will reverse the trend - but don't expect civilian volunteers to go away any time soon. Nor should we want them to.
Michael Dorosh
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Mike_R23A said:
Why would you want to use a musician in a rifle company? If your rifle companies are so pathetically undermanned that 3 or 4 pipers, drummers, or bassoonists would make a difference, I'd say your focus is a bit skewed. Wouldn't they need not just SQ but also BIQ to be of much value to an infantry company? Or basic storesman, driver, etc. to do anything in Echelon?
How many musicians will want to have to go through 16 (?) weeks of training that has nothing to do with music? I enjoyed my BMT/GMT - wasn't particularly good at it - but was happy to go right into my trade when it was all over. Many talented musicians refused to join the military, even with the enticement of not bad pay - simply because they didn't want to put up with the Army BS. Their loss, I think, but a reality.
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Michael Dorosh said:
We remind new board members to read the entire thing before posting stuff thats already been covered. Staff or not, you should do the same.
Michael Dorosh said:
I am not interested in that either but since this is not about keeping Micheal Dorosh interested.....
Michael Dorosh
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Another note on "honourary rank"; our band does so as well, but bear in mind these come with few priviliges and are a matter of some controversy. The Pipe Major and Drum Major here are actually civilians, as is the Drum Sergeant; they are members of the WOs and Sgts mess IIRC, or at the least are invited in. But they don't have authority outside the band. It is interesting that the Drum Sgt used to be a commissioned officer in the regiment years ago. The Drum Major was a qualified submariner in the Royal Navy and the Pipe Major was a piper before the cuts and transferred to a Service Battalion where he was briefly a vehicle tech.
One will find that many volunteer musicians would be willing to join the military but cannot due to medical reasons; we also have several ex-soldiers, including regular force infantrymen, who can't get back in without redoing basic training because they have been out for ten years. Not sure that they would have forgotten how to salute or recognize the different ranks in all that time.
One will find that many volunteer musicians would be willing to join the military but cannot due to medical reasons; we also have several ex-soldiers, including regular force infantrymen, who can't get back in without redoing basic training because they have been out for ten years. Not sure that they would have forgotten how to salute or recognize the different ranks in all that time.
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Sorry you couldn't take two minutes out of your day to go over the previous page and a half Michael - if you did, you would have found that other (good) militaries find something productive to do with their bandsmen which may be worth looking at.
If someone doesn't want to join the Army to do the "Army BS", then piss on him I say. If he wants to wear a nice uniform when he plays his flute, he should have to live up to what wearing the uniform means.
Personally, as I said above, the Aussie way represents an interesting alternative:
If someone doesn't want to join the Army to do the "Army BS", then piss on him I say. If he wants to wear a nice uniform when he plays his flute, he should have to live up to what wearing the uniform means.
Personally, as I said above, the Aussie way represents an interesting alternative:
Infanteer said:
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Michael Dorosh said:
Well, OK, but: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9750/soldiers.htm
â Å“The historical model of regimental bands staffed by non-combatant professional musicians whose sole mandate is garrison duties is not the case with P&D platoon. Members of 2RCR Pipes and Drums must be fully qualified infantiers having completed the Regimental Battle School and infantry specific trade and career courses. Soldiers in the platoon are highly cross-trained through courses such as Assault Pioneer, Recce Patrolman, Combat Intelligence, Combat Communicator, Parachutist, Anti-Armour, and Sniper ... The only two personnel in the platoon who are not infantiers are the Pipe Major and the Drum Instructor, who are professional musicians. Their essential positions provide for the musical training and guidance within the platoon.â ?
From the 2RCR Pipes and Drums web site; I agree they are not a world class band but they are musicians and soldiers, at the same time, etc, etc.
Michael Dorosh
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Infanteer, how many Australian pipe bands compete on the world stage?
I served in England in 1990 with Aussie pipers and drummers, they were average guys, with one or two standouts, and really nothing military about them. Rather like the Canadians there.
Competition is not the only way to judge a good band (some good bands simply don't compete, if they are busy with other stuff - like military training), so we can both just guess as to how "good" these Aussie military bands are. It's possible they are well above average with respect to musical ability and talent, but the odds are low.
Like I said, for the reserves especially (we have no regular force Highland regiments), if you're so desperate for troops on the ground that you need riflemen from your P and D, you actually have bigger problems.
I do think that all civilian volunteers should do some form of basic training - perhaps even pay them - to ensure they are subject to military discipline. Then they will know enough to salute the Colours or the officers of the regiment, not walk around half undressed, show up for practice on time, don't do drugs on DND property, etc. You also eliminate the two-tier system we had in our band, with paid military guys getting meal money, travel assistance allowance, etc., and civvies getting squat. One NCO's solution was to extort our meal money from us and reassign it to the civilians. Not that we felt they were undeserving of compensation, but it shouldn't have come out of our pockets. We tried to protest but were told that if we didn't sign the aquitance roll for our meal money on a band trip to the US, all the money would go back. That NCO is no longer in the military. Many of us were students at the time and relied on that money as our sole source of income.
So my proposal would be, in effect, to lower medical standards and terms of service for musicians. We do it for the CIC, and probably padres and medical officers, in the interests of the service. I'd lower their benefits, though - no pension, gratuity, dental etc. Plus not having to go to war.
If you want the full deal, sign up, do your training, etc. I'm not sorry I took that route. But would be nice to elminate the "civilian" aspect of our bands, and reward those long serving volunteers. That would include people like our regimental secretary, who did two tours of duty as Commanding Officer of the Regiment. He doesn't get paid despite being at every practice and parade - because he is past CRA. And yet he contributes more time and talent and dedication to the band than many of the younger pipers who come out as a lark.
I served in England in 1990 with Aussie pipers and drummers, they were average guys, with one or two standouts, and really nothing military about them. Rather like the Canadians there.
Competition is not the only way to judge a good band (some good bands simply don't compete, if they are busy with other stuff - like military training), so we can both just guess as to how "good" these Aussie military bands are. It's possible they are well above average with respect to musical ability and talent, but the odds are low.
Like I said, for the reserves especially (we have no regular force Highland regiments), if you're so desperate for troops on the ground that you need riflemen from your P and D, you actually have bigger problems.
I do think that all civilian volunteers should do some form of basic training - perhaps even pay them - to ensure they are subject to military discipline. Then they will know enough to salute the Colours or the officers of the regiment, not walk around half undressed, show up for practice on time, don't do drugs on DND property, etc. You also eliminate the two-tier system we had in our band, with paid military guys getting meal money, travel assistance allowance, etc., and civvies getting squat. One NCO's solution was to extort our meal money from us and reassign it to the civilians. Not that we felt they were undeserving of compensation, but it shouldn't have come out of our pockets. We tried to protest but were told that if we didn't sign the aquitance roll for our meal money on a band trip to the US, all the money would go back. That NCO is no longer in the military. Many of us were students at the time and relied on that money as our sole source of income.
So my proposal would be, in effect, to lower medical standards and terms of service for musicians. We do it for the CIC, and probably padres and medical officers, in the interests of the service. I'd lower their benefits, though - no pension, gratuity, dental etc. Plus not having to go to war.
If you want the full deal, sign up, do your training, etc. I'm not sorry I took that route. But would be nice to elminate the "civilian" aspect of our bands, and reward those long serving volunteers. That would include people like our regimental secretary, who did two tours of duty as Commanding Officer of the Regiment. He doesn't get paid despite being at every practice and parade - because he is past CRA. And yet he contributes more time and talent and dedication to the band than many of the younger pipers who come out as a lark.
Michael Dorosh
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MCG said:
The examples of 2 RCR musicians I've seen lead me to believe that they are substantially substandard; however, it has been many years and based solely on one or two individuals dimly remembered. I do recall on of our drummers went off to 2RCR in the early 90s. He enjoyed his time in TOW platoon. Don't recall him saying much about musical standards. (He, incidentally, was a good drummer.) But, in Germany, how much competition would there be as far as pipe bands go?
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Time for me to throw in a couple pennies myself.
When I originally joined the PRes, I signed up as a musician. I was pursuing a university degree in music at the time, and it seemed like a good way to have a summer job doing something I liked anyway. Once I completed basic, I was able to qualify QL3 and 4 almost instantly, by simply taking the tests. In fact, the piece I had auditioned on to get into university more than a year before I joined was hard enough that it was on the QL6B exam. So, needless to say, I was well ahead of the game. During my time as a musician, I expressed interest in doing military training as well, and participated on several excercises with the Infantry. I was told by some of the Infanteers that it was the first time they had seen a "bandie" in the field for a decade. I tried to make myself as useful as I could, with limited soldiering skills, but I was definitely the exception rather than the rule. Most everyone else in the band had little interest in field work.
Flash forward 5-6 years, and I'm in a unit where I'm not in the band. The Seaforth band used to be comprised of Infanteers who could play the instruments, but now have opened up actual R871 positions for them. There are several keen, switched on band members who will come out on ex, and, again, participate up to their abilities, but they are also the exception, rather than the rule. Also, if they don't have to do SQ any more, it will only deepen the gulf between the two trades.
Furthermore, I know a lot of people have watched the band members go on trips across the country, or even across the world, while the serving soldiers sit on the sidelines, and I know there is a lot of resentment about that. Example - an upcoming trip to Holland in which more than 20 band members (including civilians) are getting paid to go, and only a dozen soldiers are going. While I understand the look-cool-factor of having a band there, tell me that it isn't drastically hurting the morale of the serving soldiers who are busting their butts on ex to watch some greasy civvie with long hair walk around in their regimental uniform, and getting a free trip to Europe which they did nothing to earn.
There has got to be an even balance, methinks.
When I originally joined the PRes, I signed up as a musician. I was pursuing a university degree in music at the time, and it seemed like a good way to have a summer job doing something I liked anyway. Once I completed basic, I was able to qualify QL3 and 4 almost instantly, by simply taking the tests. In fact, the piece I had auditioned on to get into university more than a year before I joined was hard enough that it was on the QL6B exam. So, needless to say, I was well ahead of the game. During my time as a musician, I expressed interest in doing military training as well, and participated on several excercises with the Infantry. I was told by some of the Infanteers that it was the first time they had seen a "bandie" in the field for a decade. I tried to make myself as useful as I could, with limited soldiering skills, but I was definitely the exception rather than the rule. Most everyone else in the band had little interest in field work.
Flash forward 5-6 years, and I'm in a unit where I'm not in the band. The Seaforth band used to be comprised of Infanteers who could play the instruments, but now have opened up actual R871 positions for them. There are several keen, switched on band members who will come out on ex, and, again, participate up to their abilities, but they are also the exception, rather than the rule. Also, if they don't have to do SQ any more, it will only deepen the gulf between the two trades.
Furthermore, I know a lot of people have watched the band members go on trips across the country, or even across the world, while the serving soldiers sit on the sidelines, and I know there is a lot of resentment about that. Example - an upcoming trip to Holland in which more than 20 band members (including civilians) are getting paid to go, and only a dozen soldiers are going. While I understand the look-cool-factor of having a band there, tell me that it isn't drastically hurting the morale of the serving soldiers who are busting their butts on ex to watch some greasy civvie with long hair walk around in their regimental uniform, and getting a free trip to Europe which they did nothing to earn.
There has got to be an even balance, methinks.
Michael Dorosh
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Everything you say, combat_medic, applies in our unit too. And there was plenty of resentment over trips to Holland. I felt it myself after the same NCO I mentioned above ensured that I wouldn't be welcome on the trip after being forced to remuster. Which is why I feel a limited capacity category for musicians, etc., would ensure that they be subject to military discipline (no earrings or long hair, as currently happens with civvie volunteers) while at the same time they could make a bit of money along with the rest.
We had keen bandsmen also; one piper graduated top of his class on TQ 1 infantry (and pissed off said NCO by wearing regimental kit on the grad parade rather than piper's accoutrements). They had fun helping out the regiment, and it was appreciated. But a lot of the fun and appreciation came because it was a novelty to both sides.
I also agree with your conclusions.
We had keen bandsmen also; one piper graduated top of his class on TQ 1 infantry (and pissed off said NCO by wearing regimental kit on the grad parade rather than piper's accoutrements). They had fun helping out the regiment, and it was appreciated. But a lot of the fun and appreciation came because it was a novelty to both sides.
I also agree with your conclusions.
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Michael Dorosh said:
Yup, and I was very pleased when the 48th Highlanders of Canada Pipes & Drums competed, and won, in Grade 1
(and, you're right again - the P&D competed in several grades by splitting themselves up into grades 2, 3 and 4 for competition, if I remember correctly).
However, the sight of the massed Regimental bands is still something unequalled in Toronto, and normally broadcast coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada when they play at the season-opener for the Maple Leafs
(the 48th also have a volunteer Military Band - brass, woodwinds, drums)
However, I'm prejudiced - I was brought up listening to the bands of the Coldstream Guards and Royal Scots ... sigh ...
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bossi said:
Didn't the 48th also wear civilian uniform (ie white shirts and prince charlie jackets) when they were competing Grade I? Seems to me they were concerned about not being taken seriously, or perhaps simply wanted to fit in better with the civvie piping circuit?
The 48th and PM Dewar have been no secret, even in Calgary - and hats off to them for acquiring such a reputation for excellence. Are things still the same there?
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2332Piper said:
To play bagpipes and get paid for it.
Is that the problem where you get paid to do your trade? I suggested in the medic threads that medics who come out with their units and do other stuff are a credit and should be encouraged to do so. It is funny how in this thread, we see evidence of the opposite attitude being in effect.
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As usual dorosh, you are right and everyone else has the wrong idea. Whatever you do, don't lose that moral high-ground, you might actualy realize that there is an army out there outside the band !
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