Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Colin Parkinson]

Even our own allies don't agree with what we claim as our. So why wouldn't the Chinese and Russian push the envelope?

Would you be happy if I just complained about a lack of air defence assets, small mortars, Howitzers, boots, uniforms, tents, mukluks, etc, etc?
   

Anyways back to the ships and I see the 3rd hull is progressing nicely https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBTiQAuUwAAk_L_.jpg

 

[Stoker]

Even our own allies don't agree with what we claim as our. So why wouldn't the Chinese and Russian push the envelope?

Would you be happy if I just complained about a lack of air defence assets, small mortars, Howitzers, boots, uniforms, tents, mukluks, etc, etc?
   

Anyways back to the ships and I see the 3rd hull is progressing nicely https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBTiQAuUwAAk_L_.jpg

Would it be a fair assumption that you see eventually either Russia or more likely China start to set up bases in Canadian territory as a weather or some sort of research station and not leave? Is this the so called envelope that you are thinking they are going to push?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That's if you really think China or the Russians are going to come into our territory. If it ever did come to that, we would see the threat coming long before and dispatch appropriate assets.

I think the yellow part is the topic some of homing in on;  is the GoC procuring 'appropriate assets'?  Maybe not tomorrow, or a year from tomorrow...but there is likely going to come a day when the resources of the Arctic are hot commodities, perhaps one countries are willing to trade punches over.  I think Canada would be making a mistake to discount the Russian and Chinese (potential) threat.

 

[Stoker]

I think the yellow part is the topic some of homing in on;  is the GoC procuring 'appropriate assets'?  Maybe not tomorrow, or a year from tomorrow...but there is likely going to come a day when the resources of the Arctic are hot commodities, perhaps one countries are willing to trade punches over.  I think Canada would be making a mistake to discount the Russian and Chinese (potential) threat.

Like I always said the ships can be up gunned if needed however that seems to be not enough for some people. People are naive to think that Russia and China is not being looked at on a continuous basis by the RCN however at this time it is a remote possibility that they will become a problem in the near future. The much touted Russian armed ice breaker cruisers that everyone was talking about a few years ago are delayed for three or four years or possibility longer as the Russians don't have the money to build them. AOPS was never designed to directly counter any foreign power and are built to commercial standards. They will be incredibly useful to the RCN doing lots of the routine tasks we have to do but not made to counter a threat in the Arctic even with a large armament. They are simply not built for it.
A hypothetical scenario is that any surface incursion in ice free waters will be countered by actual warships based out of Halifax or possibly Iqaluit in the future and we will see these warships days before
they before a problem. Some people say "we'll we may have to send them anyways as that's we have available", well I counter with regardless how they are armed it won't make a iota of difference as they are not purpose built warships and won't stand up to a stronger opponent and that is why I don't think they will ever be used for that.
At the end of the day AOPS are appropriate for what the current threat is, and the RCN is procuring assets for the future threat as well abet slowly.

 

[NavyShooter]

Ah, but CAN the ships be up-gunned?  Are they structurally fitted for a larger/heavier gun with more recoil?

You might be able to switch the 25mm for a 35mm, but putting on a 57mm or something larger would require re-structuring such as we had to do in order to accommodate the increased weight of the Cyclones vs Sea Kings.

 

[Stoker]

Ah, but CAN the ships be up-gunned?  Are they structurally fitted for a larger/heavier gun with more recoil?

You might be able to switch the 25mm for a 35mm, but putting on a 57mm or something larger would require re-structuring such as we had to do in order to accommodate the increased weight of the Cyclones vs Sea Kings.

They can with additional strengthening of the superstructure like you said, I posed this question already to people on the project. I would also imagine containerized weapon systems could also be embarked.

 

[Kirkhill]

High Arctic.

Non-Canadian nation intrudes on territory or seas claimed by the Government of Canada.

Courses of Action:

1.  Do nothing.
2.  Send Government envoy (Diplomat, Constable or Commissioned Officer) to site of incursion by sea, ice or air, and inform the perceived intruder that continued presence is not acceptable and will be construed as an act of war.
3.  Skip the frivolities and air mail a package of high explosives to remove the incursive parties.

If CoA 2 were chosen, the most likely Canadian response in my opinion, the incursive party could respond in one of three ways:

1. Acquiesce and leave
2. Do nothing and stay
3. Skip the frivolities and air mail a package of high explosive to remove the complaining parties.

CoA's 3 work best if the parties doing the mailing have bigger warehouses than the other guy, have deeper pockets to buy new stuff, and/or have more powerful friends.

In no instance does it matter if the Government Envoy's transport is an RCAF aircraft, an Army Bv206 or a ship manned by the RCMP, the CCG or the RCN.  In all instances the Government is conducting an Advance to Contact and should be ready to React to Effective Enemy Fire.

In no circumstances would it be reasonable to send an envoy into such a situation without appropriate fire support available.  That support would be necessary regardless if the AOPS were being sailed, or just commanded,  by the RCMP, the CCG or the RCN.  In all cases the most likely, and I suggest, the most effective, the most rapid and most flexible, method  of providing that support is through the RCAF which can respond in hours, hover for hours and react in minutes.  Meanwhile any vessel is going to take days, if not weeks to get to the site of the incursion (by which time many inter-governmental text messages will have been sent) and it will takes weeks if not months for a supporting vessel to arrive (by which time everyone is frozen in place until the sun comes over the horizon again).

Constabulary duties to be done, to be done.  A policeman's lot is not a happy one.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook: Thing is that, NW Passage aside, the rest of Canadian land and maritime territory (save Hans Island and Beaufort Sea) is not contested by anyone. So any Russian or Chinese incursion without advance permission by GoC is such areas would be an act of aggression that would bring into play NATO in principle and certainly the US in reality, as Americans do not want those countries actually expanding territorially in the North American Arctic. See several recent public statements warning those countries off generally, e.g.:
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/07/russia-china-offer-challenges-arctic/158303/

It's not as if poor little Canada is facing Big Bear and Mighty Dragon alone.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Good2Golf]

High Arctic.

...If CoA 2 were chosen, the most likely Canadian response in my opinion, the incursive party could respond in one of three ways:

1. Acquiesce apologize and leave
2. Do nothing and stay
3. Skip the frivolities and air mail a package of high explosive to remove the complaining parties.
...

FTFY. :nod:

 

[Kirkhill]

Chris Pook: Thing is that, NW Passage aside, the rest of Canadian land and maritime territory (save Hans Island and Beaufort Sea) is not contested by anyone. So any Russian or Chinese incursion without advance permission by GoC is such areas would be an act of aggression that would bring into play NATO in principle and certainly the US in reality, as Americans do not want those countries actually expanding territorially in the North American Arctic. See several recent public statements warning those countries off generally, e.g.:
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/07/russia-china-offer-challenges-arctic/158303/

It's not as if poor little Canada is facing Big Bear and Mighty Dragon alone.

Mark
Ottawa

Agree entirely.

And all the more reason why all that is really necessary is a lightly armed constabulary presence.  Now if the RCMP (or the CBP) had blue water sailors or the CCG union rules permitted the use of deadly force and entering high risk environments, then there would be no need for the RCN to be wandering the Arctic.  But there is a need and the RCN is the designated agency because it matches the greatest number of available competencies. (And it isn't subject to union rules and civil service regulations).

So the problem is not the usefulness and appropriateness of the platforms.  The problem is the usefulness and appropriateness of the agencies.

And G2G - thanks for the correction.  I apologize for forcing you to make the correction.

 

[Good2Golf]

And G2G - thanks for the correction.  I apologize for forcing you to make the correction.

I apologize for putting you in a position to feel you had to apologize.  My apologies.

;D

 

[dimsum]

I apologize for putting you in a position to feel you had to apologize.  My apologies.

;D

This "sorry circle" is the most Canadian thing I've seen in a long time.  :cdnsalute:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Would it be a fair assumption that you see eventually either Russia or more likely China start to set up bases in Canadian territory as a weather or some sort of research station and not leave? Is this the so called envelope that you are thinking they are going to push?

Yes, along with freedom of navigation passages. China is trying to build more capable icebreakers than we have or will have. Along with the AOPs and the CCG ships we are going to need to have more of a terrestrial foot print as well. Hence the reason I also support a major port building program up there along with other initiatives. 

 

[Stoker]

Agree entirely.

And all the more reason why all that is really necessary is a lightly armed constabulary presence.  Now if the RCMP (or the CBP) had blue water sailors or the CCG union rules permitted the use of deadly force and entering high risk environments, then there would be no need for the RCN to be wandering the Arctic.  But there is a need and the RCN is the designated agency because it matches the greatest number of available competencies. (And it isn't subject to union rules and civil service regulations).

So the problem is not the usefulness and appropriateness of the platforms.  The problem is the usefulness and appropriateness of the agencies.

And G2G - thanks for the correction.  I apologize for forcing you to make the correction.

I wish more people would understand that.

 

[Kirkhill]

I apologize for putting you in a position to feel you had to apologize.  My apologies.

;D

;D

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook: And I agree with you completely  :nod:.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Underway]

Ah, but CAN the ships be up-gunned?  Are they structurally fitted for a larger/heavier gun with more recoil?

You might be able to switch the 25mm for a 35mm, but putting on a 57mm or something larger would require re-structuring such as we had to do in order to accommodate the increased weight of the Cyclones vs Sea Kings.

57mm is a self defence weapon for mainly anti ship missiles and aircraft.  If you want to upgun for ASuW then a 76mm is better.  But that will also require a sensor change AFAIK or a CMS version upgrade at the very least.

The best bet is bolt on Anti ship missiles which can be programed to attack a target that is already been found by other assets.

Well actually the best bet for arctic defence is the airforce but since we're talking alarmist and against Chinese and Russian geopolitical realities/natural inclinations then lets just pretend like the AOPS are going to go into combat in our own arctic...

 

[Stoker]

57mm is a self defence weapon for mainly anti ship missiles and aircraft.  If you want to upgun for ASuW then a 76mm is better.  But that will also require a sensor change AFAIK or a CMS version upgrade at the very least.

The best bet is bolt on Anti ship missiles which can be programed to attack a target that is already been found by other assets.

Well actually the best bet for arctic defence is the airforce but since we're talking alarmist and against Chinese and Russian geopolitical realities/natural inclinations then lets just pretend like the AOPS are going to go into combat in our own arctic...

I agree the 76mm would have been the best bet and we could have used the ones from the 280's, probably still has lots of ammo and didn't have to reinvent the wheel on SOP's etc. Unfortunately they were divested.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which I believe that the Danes did

 

[dimsum]

I thought we based ours off the Norwegian Svalbard-class?  They have a 57mm.