Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Cloud Cover]

Not surprisingly, the planned order for AOPS is being trimmed to perhaps only 5 vessels: Shared from CTV news and the Canadian Press authors in accordance with the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act, RSC:


OTTAWA -- The Harper government is trimming its expected order of Arctic patrol ships and evaluating a set of unsolicited proposals to convert civilian cargo ships for use by the Canadian navy.

So say several government, defence and industry sources who spoke to The Canadian Press on condition of anonymity.

Both steps are a sign that more modest expectations have been set for the government's national shipbuilding strategy, which after three years has yet to deliver any new vessels.

Sources familiar with the plan, but not authorized to discuss it publicly, say National Defence and Public Works are studying a proposal from the Davie Shipyard in Quebec for a five-year lease of bulked-up civilian cargo ships.

At the same time, negotiations with Halifax-based Irving Shipbuilding for the construction of Arctic offshore patrol ships have seen the government scale back a plan to buy as many as eight vessels to enforce sovereignty in the North.

The government now plans to buy just five light icebreakers, with an option for a sixth


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/harper-trims-the-number-of-arctic-warships-on-order-1.2062482#ixzz3Gk3jaaUT



 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Not surprisingly, the planned order for AOPS is being trimmed to perhaps only 5 vessels: Shared from CTV news and the Canadian Press authors in accordance with the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act, RSC:

OTTAWA -- The Harper government is trimming its expected order of Arctic patrol ships and evaluating a set of unsolicited proposals to convert civilian cargo ships for use by the Canadian navy.

So say several government, defence and industry sources who spoke to The Canadian Press on condition of anonymity.

Both steps are a sign that more modest expectations have been set for the government's national shipbuilding strategy, which after three years has yet to deliver any new vessels.

Sources familiar with the plan, but not authorized to discuss it publicly, say National Defence and Public Works are studying a proposal from the Davie Shipyard in Quebec for a five-year lease of bulked-up civilian cargo ships.

At the same time, negotiations with Halifax-based Irving Shipbuilding for the construction of Arctic offshore patrol ships have seen the government scale back a plan to buy as many as eight vessels to enforce sovereignty in the North ....

Interestingly enough, this just out today:

Canada will fail to deliver a proposed fleet of six to eight Arctic patrol ships unless it spends significantly more than the C$2.8 billion ($2.51 billion) planned, the Canadian Parliament's budget watchdog said on Tuesday.

The Conservative government had announced plans to build the fleet of polar-capable ships over the next decade as part of its strategy to exert sovereignty over the region and increase operating capability there.

But a review by the Parliamentary Budget Office, set up in 2006 to provide independent analysis to legislators, concluded that the government's existing plan would only deliver three or four ships.

"It is not possible at any confidence level to build eight or six ships for the C$2.8 billion budget," said the report released by Jean-Denis Fréchette, Canada's parliamentary budget officer.

A government spokesman rejected the analysis.

"The numbers provided by the PBO are based on erroneous data, rough cost estimates of international vessels with varied capabilities and derived using inaccurate specifications," said Marcel Poulin, a spokesman for Canada's Public Works Minister Diane Finley.

Fréchette said that there was insufficient contemporary Canadian data on an acquisition of this nature. He also wrote that Canada's defense department had removed details of the fleet's proposed capabilities from its website and declined to share technical details ....

PBO deck and report here and here.

 

[AlexanderM]

So over $400 million per ship!!!  I wish we could cancell the selection of Irving and go with Davie.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When Davies is better than your current selection you have serious problems.

 

[AlexanderM]

We do have serious problems, being the cost of domestic ships compared to outsourcing.

 

[GK .Dundas]

We do have serious problems, being the cost of domestic ships compared to outsourcing.

Actually the system works perfectly when you understand it is designed to produce jobs, votes  and DND / Treasury board pensions.The production of of any military equipment  is quite frankly a byproduct of the process, and sometimes almost accidental.
The only truly successfull procurement program in the last ten years was the C 17 .
It also provided both proof of my argument and some inadvertent humour on the part of the political leaders involved.
After the announcement of the C 17 purchase  three provincial  premiers held a hastily called press conference where basically they screamed like a collection of cheated whores .Because the contract wouldn't generate any or very few jobs in Canada . I still get a delightful case of the warm and fuzzies when recalling this incident .

 

[AlexanderM]

Actually the system works perfectly when you understand it is designed to produce jobs, votes  and DND / Treasury board pensions.The production of of any military equipment  is quite frankly a byproduct of the process, and sometimes almost accidental.
The only truly successfull procurement program in the last ten years was the C 17 .
It also provided both proof of my argument and some inadvertent humour on the part of the political leaders involved.
After the announcement of the C 17 purchase  three provincial  premiers held a hastily called press conference where basically the screamed like a collection of cheated whores .Because the contract wouldn't generate any or very few jobs in Canada . I still get a delightful case of the warm and fuzzies when recalling this incident .

As a taxpayer it makes me sick what we are going to have to pay for these ships and how much of the money cannot have anything to do with the building of the ships, as we could really build the ships 2 or 3 times over.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

both in time and money

 

[daftandbarmy]

As a taxpayer it makes me sick what we are going to have to pay for these ships and how much of the money cannot have anything to do with the building of the ships, as we could really build the ships 2 or 3 times over.

Murphy's Rules of Armed Conflict:

Remember that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder  ;D

 

[AlexanderM]

Murphy's Rules of Armed Conflict:

Remember that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder  ;D

I agree with the point, don't want our ships to have made in China stamped on the bottom, but alot of that money is not going towards getting a better ship, it's just vaporizing out of tax payers pockets.

 

[Good2Golf]

If by 'vapourizing' you mean having each dollar cycle approximately nine-fold* within the Canadian economy before being attrited to a negligible value, then yes...

G2G

* searching for the reference I read recently about the recursive value of each dollar of taxpayers' money spent within Canada's economy.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I agree with the point, don't want our ships to have made in China stamped on the bottom, but alot of that money is not going towards getting a better ship, it's just vaporizing out of tax payers pockets.

"better" is relative; a lot of the valve bodies etc are now coming out of China, and are of high quality.  There is plenty of expensive poor quality work getting done in Canada at premium dollars.  I don't think anyone minds paying more for Canadian made, but the old assumption that it's better (or at least comparable) quality doesn't always work.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Without getting them made in China, I could not see anything wrong with Irving deciding to get the hulls assembled in, say, Poland, and then towed/shipped to Halifax for fitting out. That is what the Danes did for their Knud Rasmunssen class. After all, an ice capable hull is expensive to make because of he thickness of the steel and more complex welding process that results from it so, why not use a shipyard that already has welders that mastered that art?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

"better" is relative; a lot of the valve bodies etc are now coming out of China, and are of high quality.  There is plenty of expensive poor quality work getting done in Canada at premium dollars.  I don't think anyone minds paying more for Canadian made, but the old assumption that it's better (or at least comparable) quality doesn't always work.

It's a common practice to look at factory codes in China as some factories have reps for quality products and others for utter crap. Most of the high end pianos are made in China and then sold under other brand names.

 

[misratah500]

I still don't know what the point of these vessels are? They navy doesn't deal with the arctic, the coast guard does. Will these ships be deployable? Are they replacing the MCDV's as coastal vessels? Can they RAS or integrate into a task group.

If feels to me that the navy is being shoved something it doesn't need or fucking want. Just to fulfill the Con's promises of arctic icebreakers and protect the north blah blah blah.

 

[TCM621]

I still don't know what the point of these vessels are? They navy doesn't deal with the arctic, the coast guard does. Will these ships be deployable? Are they replacing the MCDV's as coastal vessels? Can they RAS or integrate into a task group.

If feels to me that the navy is being shoved something it doesn't need or ******* want. Just to fulfill the Con's promises of arctic icebreakers and protect the north blah blah blah.

The coast guard doesn't actually guard a coast and the North needs guarding. Right now there are 4 major claimants to the resources up there including one which just named NATO it's biggest threat. With no presence up there it weakens our position to that area. This is the point of a naval forces up their. To guard our 3rd coast.

 

[misratah500]

The fact that the coast guard doesn't actually guard anything should probably be something that needs to be looked at. They should actually be armed and a part of the military not fisheries and oceans.

These vessels will be only useful in the summer time when winter ice is it's thinnest. Those nuclear Russian icebreakers on the other hand will have free reign where we won't. If they were serious about Arctic defence (they're not) then we would have other ships, subs and bases that could deal with the Arctic year round.

It's all PR photo ops.

 

[NavyShooter]

Oh,

That is soooo cynical. 

True.

But cynical!

NS

 

[ringo]

Limit AOPS to three ships ordered additional icebreakers for Coast Guard and arm Coast Guard.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Limit AOPS to three ships ordered additional icebreakers for Coast Guard and arm Coast Guard.

From my understanding, Coast Guard personnel don't wish to become an armed entity.  You'd have pushback from that quarter.