Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[AlexanderM]

How much has it cost them?  I personally have no idea.

We know the costs of many of the warships, the Dutch, the German, the Spanish with the Aegis system, so the cost is included.  For instance, the Dutch DeZeven Provincien all in cost is around $700-$800 million, includes the hull and systems.  Spanish F100's cost say $600-$700 million, including systems, the F105 cost just under $1 billion because they upgraded to high quality steel. 

So, we know the cost for everything is under $1 billion per ship, including integration.  The point is, the cost is only so much, and it's included.

 

[AlexanderM]

According to the mouse-pad I have in front of me (unclassified/Open Source) the following companies are involved in the Combat System Integrator:

Saab Systems (CEROS 200)
Saab Microwave (SG-180)
IBM Canada (DLPS)
Telephonics (IFF)
Elisra Electronic Systems (ESM)
Raytheon Anschuetz GmbH (X and S band Nav Radars)
Thales (Smart-S)

So there's 7 companies...some of them competitors.  In a VERY competitive global market for a LIMITED number of hulls/systems/etc. 

Sharing with Lockheed Martin, their proprietary interface data....another competitor for ALL of them.

Sure, there's countries out there that have bought some of these systems, and deployed them, and gotten them to work together. 

How much has it cost them?  I personally have no idea.

These upgrades are not like swapping out your car stereo, with a common form factor, and simple installation instructions.

I have done a *tiny* bit of playing with standard format computer languages....for example, G-code for a computerized Mill, or NMEA 0183 data in serial comms from shipboard navigation gear.  Every CNC system now uses G-codes....they all speak the same language, and they all run the same way.

Proprietary sensor systems from different manufacturers will probably need converters of some sort built into them, or their interfaces, so that they're all talking the same language.  It'd be like trying to get my shipboard GPS to send position updates to my CNC mill, converting the NMEA 0183 to G-codes....Sound like fun?  Do-able...time consuming...and probably expensive.

I have NOT yet receieved any detailed info on the new systems (this summer I hope!) but knowing how many major software revisions it's taken to get our pre-FELEX ships up to their current status, well, I'm wondering how long it'll take to get the new ships going, and how many revisions.

NS

What you're failing to recognize here is that the Smart-L/APAR combination is already up and running on a number of ships including, the Germans, the Dutch, the Dannish and at least one other, the Nansen Class (Norway).  So, we are doing what has already been done.  Of course, it is still involved, but it isn't starting from scratch.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Production cost won't include integration development effort.

Navy shooter is right. As an example, it cost over $1 billion to integrate a new command system into the Collins submarines, and that's with very few "new" interfaces. Integrating all those different pieces of equipment is very tough. It would still be tough even if we took a pre-integrated system due to RFI and HERO on a new hull.

 

[AlexanderM]

Production cost won't include integration development effort.

Navy shooter is right. As an example, it cost over $1 billion to integrate a new command system into the Collins submarines, and that's with very few "new" interfaces. Integrating all those different pieces of equipment is very tough. It would still be tough even if we took a pre-integrated system due to RFI and HERO on a new hull.

$1.3 billion per hull would still be within the budget of $20 billion for the 15 hulls.  If we can't get the integration done, using a pre-integrated system, then there is something seriously wrong.  That would still be paying a premium for the ships.

 

[Kirkhill]

One way that costs could be contained would be to accept the complete design, in its entirety, of a vessel like the Huitfeldt/Absalons or the Zeven Provinces, or the F125..... and just have it built in Canada exactly to that spec.  That would give you an apples to apples comparison.  You would then be looking at Denmark's five ships, or Holland's four ships, or Germany's four ships, as prototypes for Canada's 15 ships.  I believe there is merit to that approach.

The risk can be managed further by breaking the 15 ships into 3 flights of 5 vessels (or even 5 flights of 3 vessels or 1 flight of 3 Absolon type GP vessels and 2 flights of 6 AAW/ASW vessels).

The problems will multiply if a green design team is married with a green client over a clean sheet of paper.

 

[AlexanderM]

One way that costs could be contained would be to accept the complete design, in its entirety, of a vessel like the Huitfeldt/Absalons or the Zeven Provinces, or the F125..... and just have it built in Canada exactly to that spec.  That would give you an apples to apples comparison.  You would then be looking at Denmark's five ships, or Holland's four ships, or Germany's four ships, as prototypes for Canada's 15 ships.  I believe there is merit to that approach.

The risk can be managed further by breaking the 15 ships into 3 flights of 5 vessels (or even 5 flights of 3 vessels or 1 flight of 3 Absolon type GP vessels and 2 flights of 6 AAW/ASW vessels).

Yes, I agree.  Use the Huitfeldt Class, with the flexible midship missle bay.  Only difference between Destoyers and Frigates is put more VLS 41 cells on Destroyers, leave more room for mission modules on Frigates, give Destroyers more command and control hardware and give them the bigger 150mm guns with extended range shells.

I'd also like a quote for using high grade steel, like HSLA 80 or 100, or some other good but cheaper option.

If we can't just switch the design from commercial to military specs, then go with the DeZeven Provinciel design strait up, still look at upgrading the steel.

 

[AlexanderM]

Also the Huitfeldt Class can handle 20 tons on the flightdeck which means Chinook, although it wouldn't be able to carry more than 6 tons of cargo. Not sure if the hanger is long enough, would need more than 100 feet.  Read something about frigates being able to operate Chinooks for certain operations as part of mission capabilities.

 

[NavyShooter]

What you're failing to recognize here is that the Smart-L/APAR combination is already up and running on a number of ships including, the Germans, the Dutch, the Dannish and at least one other, the Nansen Class (Norway).  So, we are doing what has already been done.  Of course, it is still involved, but it isn't starting from scratch.

And....there's where we come off the rails.

Because there is no ship in the world with the same systems as a combined whole.  Period.

The Smart-S might be tied in, but let's look at the WHOLE picture for a moment.   

Tom Clancy scenario time...

We have a ship operating in EMCON, (radar silent) and they detect on the ESM that there's a radar looking at us (high PRF indicating lock) 

Response?  Transmit on all radars...look for the target, detect it, lock it up ourselves, and fire our 57mm gun at it. 

What does all that take.  Well, more than just the Smart-S radar. 

We have the initial ESM contact...that's one system.

Then we have the radars (Smart S, already integrated) and the SG-180 (That's 2 systems) 

Now we have to pass the target designation on to the appropriate fire control radar....the CEROS 200.  (That's 3 systems)

Now once we've locked the target up and decide to fire, we have to have our 57mm brought into the loop (that's 4 systems)

Sooooo....while the Smart-S might be tied in, there's a multitude of other systems that are not, and need to be in order for the whole picture to work.

Please don't take this the wrong way, they can do it (and in fact, ARE doing it right now.)

BUT.

It's time consuming, and expensive when you have to integrate multiple sensors to provide overlapping information layers to the ship's team...

It'll work out in the end, but getting everything to talk is a significant challenger I'm sure, just based on open-source review of what they're trying to integrate.

Comparing apples to apples....the German F124 class is a good example, it has the Thales Smart-L and APAR radars, plus the Thales SIRIUS, and Atlas Radar/EO FC systems....so, they have 2 manufacturers for most of their gear (3 if you include their ESM) while we have....um....9 was it? Yeah, the Germans have it a lot easier....they really do in this case.  They're not integrating to the same extent as we are.
NS

 

[AlexanderM]

Comparing apples to apples....the German F124 class is a good example, it has the Thales Smart-L and APAR radars, plus the Thales SIRIUS, and Atlas Radar/EO FC systems....so, they have 2 manufacturers for most of their gear (3 if you include their ESM) while we have....um....9 was it? Yeah, the Germans have it a lot easier....they really do in this case.  They're not integrating to the same extent as we are.
NS

OK, but we don't have to integrate any more than this either, talking about the new ships, not the FELIX upgrade.  We could even choose the exact same systems, meaning they're pre-integrated, and this is the exact approach we should be taking.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

You do realize that pits things like dropping in more Mk 41 modules and 155 mm guns out of the question, right?

 

[MarkOttawa]

AlexanderM: Re CSC:

"$1.3 billion per hull would still be within the budget of $20 billion for the 15 hulls [emphasis added]."

This from 2010:

"...Vanguard spoke with Rear Admiral (Ret’d) Ian Mack, National Defence’s Director General for Major Project Delivery (Land and Sea) about the navy’s shipbuilding program...

Canadian Surface Combatant
The most anticipated vessel in the new wave of shipbuilding is the Canadian Surface Combatant, the 15 ships that will replace the current mix of destroyers and frigates. With acquisition costs of about $26 billion [emphasis added] and in-service support estimated at almost $15 billion over twenty years, these ships will be Canada’s military presence on the world’s oceans..."
http://vanguardcanada.com/new-fleet-in-sight-canadian-navy-builds-for-tomorrow/

And I believe those 2010 number are supposed to be fixed and not to be upped for inflation.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[AlexanderM]

Mark, as I understand it, those number are not relevant.  The current budget for the 15 CSC is $20 billion, not $26 billion.  Or, at least, those are the numbers under the current building program.  I think the $26 billion figure was someone's wish list prior to the announcement of the current program.

 

[AlexanderM]

You do realize that pits things like dropping in more Mk 41 modules and 155 mm guns out of the question, right?

Or it would mean that would be the full extent of additional integration required. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

AlexanderM: Have you got a link to an official source (or a media one) for the $20 billion figure?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[AlexanderM]

There are a number of sources, I'll look it up later.  The $25 billion awarded to Irvings was, $20 billion for the CSC, then remainder for the AOP's, and perhaps something else.

Here is one that says $25 billion for Destroyers, frigates and AOP's.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/10/14/ns-faq-halifax-shipbuilding-bid.html

http://www.atlanticbusinessmagazine.ca/mobile/issues/ABM_v22n6/upfront.php

http://www.atlanticbusinessmagazine.ca/departments/upfront/abmupfront-5/

 

[MarkOttawa]

AlexanderM:  As far as I know that $25 billion figure for combat ships appears only in the media, not in any official sources:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=canada+shipbuilding+%2433+billion+%2425+billion&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

All the gov't has said that I can find is that there is a total of $33 billion for both combat and non-combat vessels:

"The total value of both packages is $33 billion and will span 20 to 30 years."
http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=629989

"1. What is the value of the packages?

The government has announced $33 billion for the construction of Canada's large vessels. The specific value will be determined through contract negotiations on each project."
1. What is the value of the packages?
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/sam-mps/faq-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[AlexanderM]

Well, we do know that Irving got $25 billion and Sea Span $8 billion, total $33 billion.  So, if Irving's contract is $25 billion for 21 ships, being 15 Destroyers/Frigates and 6 AOP's, then it can't be $26 billion just for Destroyers/Frigates.  The media would have recieved their numbers from somewhere.

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/gptm-pgtm-eng.html

 

[MarkOttawa]

But still no official gov't figure for the CSCs.  One wonders why.  Perhaps the money won't really be there for 6 A/OPSs and 15 CSCs as the latter have been envisaged--remember that $26 billion figure from an admiral who should know.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

Or perhaps the suit will be tailored to suit the cloth?