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The problem with a road up there isn't distance, it's terrain. The same thing that has seen the rail line up there in and out of service over the years.
Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
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PrairieFella
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It's roughly 200km due North to Churchill from Sundance, MB. Sundance is an abandoned hydro town which is the terminus of highway 290 out of Gillam. Interestingly there is actually a line of towns from Sundance to Gimli all tracking due North. Looks neat on Google maps. Extremely hostile terrain though, think Canadian Shield with bigger rocks, deeper swamps and thicker boreal. Stunningly beautiful and wild part of the country though.
Edit: I'm an idiot, the straight line of towns in the rail line.
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Yes the terrain is crappy but its not the end of the world. There looks to be a road south of Churchill that is fully in use today that ends just east of 'Sundance'. Building a road would be in the area of about 200km and would link about 17 communities with the rest of Canada.
PrairieFella
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Im in full agreement that a road should be built. I also think the rail line should be upgraded. Hell, I think a base should be built in Churchill too. It's our only arctic deepwater port, the closest port to the old world in all of North America and could be a key station in arctic sovereignty patrols. I bet if the harbour was upgraded and trade was normalized out of the port, the road and rail would pay for itself.
Im actually headed up part of the way at least to Paint Lake for a kayak trip in early June, I'm really curious about the road conditions heading North to Thompson. Never been that far North in my own province before.
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You mean reopened.
PrairieFella
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We'll idk if I'd call the atmospheric study and radio station a base but yes haha. I'm talking at least 4 CAF ships or 2 CAF ships and 2 CCG ships. 2-3 AOPS and 1-2 icebreakers plus an airstrip and surge capacity for a company + of army troops as a forward staging area.
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No- in the 1950s, there was a full military base there.
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What 17 communities are you referring to? North of Sundance MB, those “communities” are only theoretical railway station points.
GR66
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Rather than creating completely new ports why don't we properly develop the ports that we already have and leverage the existing economic opportunities to create the effective military infrastructure we require.
This summer a new deep sea port officially opened in Iqaluit which is not only the capital of Nunavut but also conveniently at the Eastern entrance to the NWP.
Nanisivik is finally scheduled to open this year. It also sits along the NWP and if we were smart we'd revert to the original plans and re-open the airport and expand the facilities.
Nunavut has a project to build an all-weather road and a deep water port at Grays Bay near Bathurst Inlet and also along the NWP. This road and port is meant to exploit the mineral-rich areas inland to a port and the eventual plan is to take the road all the way to Yellowknife and the national highway system.
Finally, on the Western end of the NWP in 2021 the Conservatives promised to develop a deep water port in Tuktoyaktuk (as well as road and hydro links between Nunavut and Manitioba). Hopefully PP's Conservatives will follow through with that commitment.
Another key infrastructure feature that needs to be expanded is Fibre Optic Cables. There are existing fibre networks crossing Canada's north and serving Northern Quebec and there are plans to bring high-speed internet to Iqaluit and other Northern communities in 2025. We should focus on bringing our own fibre connections right across the NWP (including dedicated fibres for the CAF and its Northern facilities).
This summer a new deep sea port officially opened in Iqaluit which is not only the capital of Nunavut but also conveniently at the Eastern entrance to the NWP.
Nanisivik is finally scheduled to open this year. It also sits along the NWP and if we were smart we'd revert to the original plans and re-open the airport and expand the facilities.
Nunavut has a project to build an all-weather road and a deep water port at Grays Bay near Bathurst Inlet and also along the NWP. This road and port is meant to exploit the mineral-rich areas inland to a port and the eventual plan is to take the road all the way to Yellowknife and the national highway system.
Finally, on the Western end of the NWP in 2021 the Conservatives promised to develop a deep water port in Tuktoyaktuk (as well as road and hydro links between Nunavut and Manitioba). Hopefully PP's Conservatives will follow through with that commitment.
Another key infrastructure feature that needs to be expanded is Fibre Optic Cables. There are existing fibre networks crossing Canada's north and serving Northern Quebec and there are plans to bring high-speed internet to Iqaluit and other Northern communities in 2025. We should focus on bringing our own fibre connections right across the NWP (including dedicated fibres for the CAF and its Northern facilities).
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LOL - Potemkin villages in Canada!
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Not even that. They aren’t even pretending to be villages.
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If they are named/listed on Google, they are pretend villages.
PrairieFella
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I think they're flagstops for the railway. Once upon a time they probably planned railway towns but nothing came to fruition. The names stayed and they may be used by a trapper or hunter from time to time.
GK .Dundas
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Churchill has a rather small natural harbour.
I mentioned Port Nelson it has a rather larger harbour but it's filled-in with silt and you would have to re-lay the rail line and replace the bridges to the island salvage and demolish the wreak of the original dredge.
Oh and basically replace all the infrastructure.
I view it as basically proof that there really is nothing new under the sun.
That and what ever you do is going to cost major bucks.$$$$$$
By the way the Manitoba Historical Society has several excellent videos on YouTube covering Port Nelson and I believe Churchill.
I mentioned Port Nelson it has a rather larger harbour but it's filled-in with silt and you would have to re-lay the rail line and replace the bridges to the island salvage and demolish the wreak of the original dredge.
Oh and basically replace all the infrastructure.
I view it as basically proof that there really is nothing new under the sun.
That and what ever you do is going to cost major bucks.$$$$$$
By the way the Manitoba Historical Society has several excellent videos on YouTube covering Port Nelson and I believe Churchill.
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what would be the comparative costs between laying track or a pipeline to Port Nelson and developing the harbour as opposed to having to build a new natural gas line clear through to the east coast with all the political complications of crossing through Quebec?
GK .Dundas
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On one hand the artificial Island has survived.
On the other you'll probably have to replace most of the rail line from the south if only because some of that line dates from the 1870s.
And then once you actually get there. The problem of the bridge that is the half mile long bridge that's composed of 17 seperate spans.
In another words a lot. I'm actually not to sure if would be cheaper or not.
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I apologize for the quality of the image - I couldn't seem to get the blurriness to disappear.
In 1670 a couple of Frenchmen (Radishes and Gooseberries - Radisson and Groseilliers) got fed up paying taxes to the government in Montreal. They approached some French associates in London who convinced some Brits to finance a venture that would allow them to access the interior of North America while bypassing Montreal. They were assisted in their endeavours by Norse folks from the Orkneys and Shetlands that had been sailing those waters since before the Inuit replaced the Cape Dorsets to harvest whale and walrus.
Ruperts Land traded directly with Bristol, bypassing the St Lawrence for 200 years.
In 1870 Montreal bought Ruperts Land from the Hudson Bay Company and started directing trade through the St Lawrence by way of Thunder Bay.
In my opinion....
This facilitated tax collection by Montreal.
It facilitated the National Plan of MacDonald (which also generated the Crows Nest Rate) by which the West would sell grain to eastern merchants instead of furs and the easterners would sell tractors to westerners as well as grain to the world.
The St Lawrence Seaway enhanced and calcified that trade route.
Between the 1880s and 1920s there were some efforts to re-jig the Hudson Bay route but, again in my opinion, there was little political will to support the efforts.
Ruperts Land was acquired as a colony of the Canadas. Shipping out of Churchill, York Factory, Fort Rupert etc would bypass Upper Canada (Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa), Lower Canada (Montreal, Quebec), New Brunswick (The MacKays, Thompsons and Irvines), Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia as well as BC.
....
Canada as seen from the Prairies in 1915, about the time the Churchill Railway was being promoted.
....
Hudson Bay is a Great Lake. A very large version of Lake Superior but with all shores owned by Canada. It is ringed by little villages with anchorages that are connected by air and sea.
Those little villages supply access to the interior of the country and its resources.
The efficient method of connecting them is by water.
Currently the Bay is served from North to South, from Outside to In, by sea from the St Lawrence. It has to wait until the summer for the ships to start arriving.
If the Bay were served from South to North, out of Moosonee and Churchill, the southern communities could be served earlier in the season and for longer.
If Churchill and Moosonee were open then they could start shipping in May-June and ship through November.
This would put the Bay on a similar footing to the Baltic. And the type of shipping already exists to manage that type of support and trade.
In 1670 a couple of Frenchmen (Radishes and Gooseberries - Radisson and Groseilliers) got fed up paying taxes to the government in Montreal. They approached some French associates in London who convinced some Brits to finance a venture that would allow them to access the interior of North America while bypassing Montreal. They were assisted in their endeavours by Norse folks from the Orkneys and Shetlands that had been sailing those waters since before the Inuit replaced the Cape Dorsets to harvest whale and walrus.
Ruperts Land traded directly with Bristol, bypassing the St Lawrence for 200 years.
In 1870 Montreal bought Ruperts Land from the Hudson Bay Company and started directing trade through the St Lawrence by way of Thunder Bay.
In my opinion....
This facilitated tax collection by Montreal.
It facilitated the National Plan of MacDonald (which also generated the Crows Nest Rate) by which the West would sell grain to eastern merchants instead of furs and the easterners would sell tractors to westerners as well as grain to the world.
The St Lawrence Seaway enhanced and calcified that trade route.
Between the 1880s and 1920s there were some efforts to re-jig the Hudson Bay route but, again in my opinion, there was little political will to support the efforts.
Ruperts Land was acquired as a colony of the Canadas. Shipping out of Churchill, York Factory, Fort Rupert etc would bypass Upper Canada (Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa), Lower Canada (Montreal, Quebec), New Brunswick (The MacKays, Thompsons and Irvines), Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia as well as BC.
....
Canada as seen from the Prairies in 1915, about the time the Churchill Railway was being promoted.
....
Hudson Bay is a Great Lake. A very large version of Lake Superior but with all shores owned by Canada. It is ringed by little villages with anchorages that are connected by air and sea.
Those little villages supply access to the interior of the country and its resources.
The efficient method of connecting them is by water.
Currently the Bay is served from North to South, from Outside to In, by sea from the St Lawrence. It has to wait until the summer for the ships to start arriving.
If the Bay were served from South to North, out of Moosonee and Churchill, the southern communities could be served earlier in the season and for longer.
If Churchill and Moosonee were open then they could start shipping in May-June and ship through November.
This would put the Bay on a similar footing to the Baltic. And the type of shipping already exists to manage that type of support and trade.
PrairieFella
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Nailed it. There's a reason the HBC was so powerful, they were able to leverage their trade network through the North, instead of the East.
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The economics of the 17th-19th century trade route likely no longer apply, particularly given that the St. Lawrence Seaway is well established, along with huge amounts of other infrastructure in the south like ports, highways and railways. As well as established towns and cities to support those ports highways and railways.
The billions of dollars required to try to make the Hudson Bay ports viable alternatives to the Great Lakes would likely be much more wisely spent upgrading the infrastructure already in place.
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I will give you a word currently popular: Diversity.
A healthy economy is a diverse economy. And a diverse economy is one that has many streams of income and access to many streams of resources.
One rail line running from east to west is not indicative of a diverse, or healthy economy. It is the national equivalent of the town of Cobalt, a town, incidentally that was founded when silver was discovered as a result of blasting the right of way for the Moosonee Railway. Cobalt is no more.
Canada should have many ports.
In fact Canada does have many ports. Most of those villages I show on the map are characterized by three major infrastructure structures:
An airfield,
An anchorage, and many of them have wharves as well
A tank farm for storing fuels.
The hard work has been done. Expanding tank farms, extending wharves, hardening and lengthening airfields becomes a never ending task, one that can adjust to fit the needs of the situation.
And not all ships need wharves. An ice-strengthened ship with lighters is another way of moving goods to shore in season.
...
We have the ports. Churchill exists. The railway exists. Moosonee exists. That railway exists as well. Those assets can be exploited. And if there is a revenue generator, like grain to Thunder Bay, like coal to Roberts Bank or Prince Rupert, like Oil to Sarnia and Montreal, like Natural Gas to Toronto, like Bitumen to Cushing, then the potential exists for making money by reducing the infrastructure and middlemen necessary to get product to willing buyers.
...
Our economy suffers if John A's project is hindered in any way.
Of course, there are those that enjoy having the hand on the throttle.
...
PS
Trade is now governed by Panamax and Supermax vessels - moving mass quantities with minimal crews and infrastructure.
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