AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Stoker]

Now you are speculating on future upgrades.  All Davies is saying is we hardened some spots on the deck(s) in case you ever want to fit a CWIS.

As far as I know no CWIS are being fitted in Halifax and I would take what Davie is saying in their Faq with a grain of sand. Most of what they say have a element of truth but are very creative with their wording. I would take what the Commodore is saying as gospel versus what Davie is saying.

 

[Underway]

http://www.davie.ca/resolve-frequently-asked-questions/

And many, many more answers on the above link.

Chris.  I'm going to take the Cmdr's opinion on this, not Davie's.  If he says it's not a combat vessel and will not go into combat then that's what's going to happen.  Davie is just blowing smoke for politics sake.

 

[Halifax Tar]

As far as I know no CWIS are being fitted in Halifax and I would take what Davie is saying in their Faq with a grain of sand. Most of what they say have a element of truth but are very creative with their wording. I would take what the Commodore is saying as gospel versus what Davie is saying.

Exactly. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Isn't the CWIS more of a 'last line of defence' in the modern world of naval warfare vice the one-stop-shop?  If I wanted to take your gas can out and fired 4 missiles...not all from the same location...

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm not going to get into a debate with the Commodore. 

It is his view that the Asterix does not meet his requirements.  End of.  There are situations where he wouldn't sail the Asterix

Davie and the owners of the Asterix, Federal Fleet Services, seem to have a broader view of what they expect their ship to be able to do.

 

[Stoker]

In regards to the FAQ some more details on the cost, not sure I believe them or not.

The price for Asterix is $659 million.

The Government of Canada will pay approximately $520 million for the lease of the vessel over 10 years.

The additional services requested by Canada over the next ten years amounts to around $300 million.
This includes ship management, crewing, training, operations, maintenance, certifications, insurance, victualling, fuel and lubricants etc.


So $659 Million for the cost of the ship and conversion and we don't own it. $520 Million for the lease and $300 million for additional services. So 1.4 Billion to operate the ship over 10 years and we don't even own it?

 

[Stoker]

I'm not going to get into a debate with the Commodore. 

It is his view that the Asterix does not meet his requirements.  End of.  There are situations where he wouldn't sail the Asterix

Davie and the owners of the Asterix, Federal Fleet Services, seem to have a broader view of what they expect their ship to be able to do.

Easier to have a broader view when your trying to be the RCN's gas station.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm not going to get into a debate with the Commodore. 

It is his view that the Asterix does not meet his requirements.  End of.  There are situations where he wouldn't sail the Asterix

Davie and the owners of the Asterix, Federal Fleet Services, seem to have a broader view of what they expect their ship to be able to do.

You don't seem to see the difference in what it can do and what it will do.  And what it will do is directed by the Government of Canada with, I hope, consultation with Senior Naval Officers, not Davies.

In regards to the FAQ some more details on the cost, not sure I believe them or not.

The price for Asterix is $659 million.

The Government of Canada will pay approximately $520 million for the lease of the vessel over 10 years.

The additional services requested by Canada over the next ten years amounts to around $300 million.
This includes ship management, crewing, training, operations, maintenance, certifications, insurance, victualling, fuel and lubricants etc.


So $659 Million for the cost of the ship and conversion and we don't own it. $520 Million for the lease and $300 million for additional services. So 1.4 Billion to operate the ship over 10 years and we don't even own it?

Yet.

 

[FSTO]

In all my years sailing in the FARTs we always played silly bugger with close in ASW and such. This was great during peacetime operations. But any Fleet Commander who would put his logistic base in harms way better have a very damn good reason to do so. I don't care how many self defence weapons or watertight bulkheads you have, one torp or a salvo of SSM's will make short work of any AOR.

 

[Kirkhill]

I do see the difference between what she can do (both as assessed by her owners and her customers) and what she will do (as required by her customer).

The customer wants her to do less than her owners believe she is capable of.  I don't see a problem.

As to the pricing issue -

She cost 659 Million to build.

FFS expects to receive 520 Million in Lease revenues and 300 Million in Operating revenues for a total revenue stream of 820 Million.  FFS will have out of pocket expenses for the crew and maintenance but will be reasonably expected to make a profit out of the 820 Million.

Should HMG buy her for the RCN today then the transfer price is 659 Million and FFS takes no profits from operating her.  The RCN will then absorb the full costs of crewing and maintenance.

Should HMG buy her in 5 years or 10 years time then she will be likely transferred at a significantly reduced rate.

The Government will not be paying 659 Million twice.  It will not be paying 1.4 Billion.

And by the way, seeing as how her owners believe she can do more than you want her to do, you can always experiment to see who is right.

 

[jollyjacktar]

In all my years sailing in the FARTs we always played silly bugger with close in ASW and such. This was great during peacetime operations. But any Fleet Commander who would put his logistic base in harms way better have a very damn good reason to do so. I don't care how many self defence weapons or watertight bulkheads you have, one torp or a salvo of SSM's will make short work of any AOR.

 

It never failed to make us laugh during the Battle Problems to hear the pipe "Aircraft" or "Missiles" inbound... brace for shock"  and then go on to successfully conduct DC operations.  Lol.  We'd be that greasy black smoke on the horizon and fuel sheen on the surface of the water.

 

[NavyShooter]

As far as I know no CWIS are being fitted in Halifax and I would take what Davie is saying in their Faq with a grain of sand. Most of what they say have a element of truth but are very creative with their wording. I would take what the Commodore is saying as gospel versus what Davie is saying.

Based on my experiences, I'd trust Davie's words over ISI's lies in a heartbeat.  :waiting:

The Commodore is the force employer though, so when it comes to deciding what operational environment the iAOR will be employed in, he's got an inside scoop over the rest of us.


I will note that looking back at history, the HMCS Terra Nova finished her career with the RCN fitted for, but not with CIWS as well....so....yeah, there's that.


The nice thing about the Phalanx/CIWS is that it requires no through-deck penetrations for setup/install.  All you need is a deck area that's large enough/strong enough to hold its weight and to distribute the recoil (not much from a 20mm) and a spot somewhere on the ship that you can run cables to and setup the Operator's Console(s). 


(OK, there's more to it than that, but Terra Nova's CIWS was installed and running in 10 days...)


NS

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

This is from a recent collision, but you'll get the gist: This what an AOR typically will look like after a single hit by a missile or torpedo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsDOqabk5L4

And Chief, Chris Pook has the math right: It's 659 million if the government want to buy her right now and take her over.

Otherwise, it's 520 millions over 10 years going towards paying for her (with some interest rate in there somewhere) and 300 millions for the operation and the crew over the same 10 years. So 820 millions after ten years, or basically, 82 millions every year in the Navy O&M budget and after ten years, you can return her, no questions asked. Or, you can buy her any time along the way and some of the annual 52 millions dollars for the "rental" gets credited towards the construction cost of 659 millions.

For instance, let say that the rate of return is 3% for FFS (and I will use 660 millions vice 659 for ease of calculation), then, in the first year, , 19.8 millions of the 52 millions is interest and 32.2 millions is applied in reduction of the 659 million value. This leaves a value of 627 millions for the second year, so in that year, 18.8 millions are interest, and 33.2 millions are applied against the residual value, bringing it down to 593.8 millions, which is what Canada would have to pay if they want to acquire her after 2 years.

So you can see that, acquiring her after two years would cost the rental for two years, plus operations costs for two years plus residual value after two years: (2X52) + (2X30) + 593.8 = 757.8 millions.

Now, I have a calculator that does these types of calculations, and using 3% as FFS rate of return on investment (not a bad figures for these days), it tells me that, after 10 years, the residual value for the purchase of the iAOR would be 290 million dollars, give or take a few hundred grands. So if Canada was to acquire her at the end of the period, the total cost to taxpayers would be 1.110 Billion dollars, but that would include use and operations for the last ten years.

So three financial markers here: Outright acquisition right now: 659 Million $, but we then have to pay for her operation from now on; or 820 Million $ paid over ten years, but we have nothing left in hand though we did get use of the iAOR for ten years at no extra operating costs; or 1,110 Million $ and we get the use and operation for ten years and a 17 year old ship at the end of that period.

 

[Stoker]

Based on my experiences, I'd trust Davie's words over ISI's lies in a heartbeat.  :waiting:

The Commodore is the force employer though, so when it comes to deciding what operational environment the iAOR will be employed in, he's got an inside scoop over the rest of us.


I will note that looking back at history, the HMCS Terra Nova finished her career with the RCN fitted for, but not with CIWS as well....so....yeah, there's that.


The nice thing about the Phalanx/CIWS is that it requires no through-deck penetrations for setup/install.  All you need is a deck area that's large enough/strong enough to hold its weight and to distribute the recoil (not much from a 20mm) and a spot somewhere on the ship that you can run cables to and setup the Operator's Console(s). 


(OK, there's more to it than that, but Terra Nova's CIWS was installed and running in 10 days...)


NS

I wasn't talking about ISI but I know for a fact some of what Davie is saying is let us say "embellished truth". I hear enough rumblings about Asterix that i'm sure you do as well. End of the day the Commodore is stating the obvious. Davie needs to get over the fact that we are not needing anymore tankers from them.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wasn't talking about ISI but I know for a fact some of what Davie is saying is let us say "embellished truth". I hear enough rumblings about Asterix that i'm sure you do as well. End of the day the Commodore is stating the obvious. Davie needs to get over the fact that we are not needing anymore tankers from them.

Chief,

If you are referring to the aforementioned quotes I would tend to disagree.  The Asterix CAN do all of those things, but WILL it ?  That is another matter.  My pickup can haul over 13000lbs, but it never will as I wouldn't dream of straining the engine, drive train and breaking systems to the max on my 60K truck.  It can do over 200 KMH but it never will, so long as I drive it.

I haven't head any negative statements/rumblings yet about the ship.  You could PM me if you would like. 

Having said that I am in full support another tanker from Davie.  But as long as this government is in power it will never happen.

 

[Stoker]

Chief,

If you are referring to the aforementioned quotes I would tend to disagree.  The Asterix CAN do all of those things, but WILL it ?  That is another matter.  My pickup can haul over 13000lbs, but it never will as I wouldn't dream of straining the engine, drive train and breaking systems to the max on my 60K truck.  It can do over 200 KMH but it never will, so long as I drive it.

I haven't head any negative statements/rumblings yet about the ship.  You could PM me if you would like. 

Having said that I am in full support another tanker from Davie.  But as long as this government is in power it will never happen.

I have in the past said an additional IAOR in conjunction with two JSS or whatever they're calling them now would compliment each other. Actually being on board i'm not sure about that now. People have said that its a political thing we are not optioning a second ship however I wonder now if there is other considerations in play.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Its not supposed to go into war zones.  And was never promoted as a fighting vessel.  It is not commissioned into the RCN.  This isn't news.  Its a move to stir up unfounded and ill informed negative sentiment.

It's a Victoria newspaper that likes to drum up a lot of Letters to the Editor from retired navy guys...

 

[Furniture]

Asterix is leaps and bounds above what until recently we were operating as "warship" tankers...

The government is short sighted and typically Canadian in not accepting a second Resolve ship because we have better '90s vintage tankers on order for delivery in the next 10 or so years baring any further delays.

Davie may be over stating the capabilities of the Asterix, but Seaspan hasn't even cut steel on the new AORs. It comes down to whether "good enough" is what we can work with, or if we take the Canadian route of over-engineering and studying things until we take 20 years to decide we can't make a better boot, ruck, ship than industry, but it buys votes so we will...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Other than the Resolve are there any other AOR designs in the West that are newer and significantly different than the Berlins? Even the Brits were planning 5 different classes of ships to do what we plan on one.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Does the Asterix have a cargo elevator or something similar?  Having an oiler is fantastic, but I'm under the impression that it con't (or won't) carry the big ammunition, but if it has an elevator to the store rooms at least they can carry spare parts, relief supplies etc.