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AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

jollyjacktar said:
No, they don't have a clue in all honestly in my opinion.  I don't really expect them to either as they're not in the business.  There will be one or two that are somewhat savvy but...  The ships will all look and be the same, big, grey coloured and mysterious to the majority especially the further you go inland.
Of course there is this thing called the internet and wiki, but what the hell we can't expect adults who think they should be able to tell us what to think to be able to operate complex devices and software like Firefox and keyboards.  ;D
 
speaking of the mistrals, the International Business times is reporting Canada is a serious potential destination for the Mistral

French-Built Mistral Ships For Russia Could End Up In Canadian Hands
By Christopher Harress

The Canadian military has emerged as a potential destination for the controversial French-built Mistral helicopter carrier ships, built for Russia and now at the center of an international row after France indicated it would not hand them over, in response to international indignation over Russian actions in Ukraine.

The possibility of a Canadian solution appeared in French media after French President François Hollande began a state visit to Canada this week. While Hollande has yet to make a decision on whether Russia has met the criteria to receive the ships, the presence in the French delegation to Canada of the diplomatic advisor to the chairman of DCNS, the company that manufactures the ships, offers the first indication that France could actively be seeking an alternative buyer.

While the $1.6 billion deal was signed in 2010, European relations with Russia deteriorated significantly in 2014 after the former Soviet country annexed Crimea and assisted pro-Russian separatist in the Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. 

Sanctions imposed against Russia did not prohibit the final delivery of the two Mistral ships, but the French president decided that the deal should go ahead only if Russia meets two criteria: one, genuinely observing the ceasefire between the Ukrainian government and Russian-backed rebels that was signed in September; and, two, agreeing to formally resolve the conflict in Ukraine.

The idea of Canada buying the ships is not a new one. In May 2014, Canadian Senator Hugh Segal publicly suggested that France should sell to Canada instead of Russia. “Canada or NATO should buy these ships from France, leaving the Russians to await a further slot on the list, which good behavior would assure,” Segal said. “Being silent as French technology is afforded to an adventurist Russian military stance makes no sense at all.”

It’s unclear whether Hollande has decided if Russia has met the criteria. However, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin said at the end of October that Russia has not managed to meet the criteria and the ships should not be delivered. In the wake of those comments, the CEO of DCNS fired Yves Destefanis, the project manager responsible for the delivery of the ships to Russia, saying that he had “caused damaging consequences” to the company.

The Canadian link, first reported by French newspaper Le Monde on Monday, comes at a time when the Canadian military is aggressively modernizing its navy and coast guard. According to French and Canadian sources cited in Le Monde, the Canadian Armed Forces “are now determined to diversify their partners in defense matters,” moving away from their traditional U.S. suppliers.

Canada may seek to take the two ships for less than Russia paid for them, meaning a deal could be delayed for negotiations. But a deal is further complicated by two issues: The decision not to deliver the ships is a political one that DCNS has no say in. According to the company, the deal will go ahead with Russia; the state-owned Russian defense company Rosoboronexport has already been invited to the handover ceremony of the first ship, the Sevastapol, set for Nov 14. Second, should the ships be handed over to a different military, DCNS may be sued for breach of contract, which could force them to return the cash Russia paid upfront and face a possible fine.

http://www.ibtimes.com/french-built-mistral-ships-russia-could-end-canadian-hands-1719438
 
Acquiring these particular vessels would be a disaster of epic proportions for the RCN and Canada as a whole.

1. Putin will simply order the occupation of some northern Canadian islands, Infanteer and his band of brothers will be dispatched and receive a rather unforgettable arctic swimming lesson, and then we hand over the ships anyway, and we will hand them over. 

2. What in tarnation would we be doing other than spending good money on Canadianizing a French amphibious hull loaded with Russian electronics, Russian specified engines and propulsion drive systems that the RCN has no experience in handling, likely could not get spare parts for etc. 

This would be more stupid and more useless than AOPS, yet in the finest tradition of Canadian defence procurement I could see point 2 occurring but for point 1 above.  Putin is the ally of the RCN here, if he plays his cards right....  The French should sell these things to India, they like Russian stuff.


edit to say: If Canada was looking at an LP(?) it should probably be an LPD like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio-class_amphibious_transport_dock
The US cancelled one of the ships but is still paying the full price for all 12. 
 
 
whiskey601 said:
Acquiring these particular vessels would be a disaster of epic proportions for the RCN and Canada as a whole.

1. Putin will simply order the occupation of some northern Canadian islands, Infanteer and his band of brothers will be dispatched and receive a rather unforgettable arctic swimming lesson, and then we hand over the ships anyway, and we will hand them over. 

2. What in tarnation would we be doing other than spending good money on Canadianizing a French amphibious hull loaded with Russian electronics, Russian specified engines and propulsion drive systems that the RCN has no experience in handling, likely could not get spare parts for etc. 

This would be more stupid and more useless than AOPS, yet in the finest tradition of Canadian defence procurement I could see point 2 occurring but for point 1 above.  Putin is the ally of the RCN here, if he plays his cards right....  The French should sell these things to India, they like Russian stuff.


edit to say: If Canada was looking at an LP(?) it should probably be an LPD like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio-class_amphibious_transport_dock
The US cancelled one of the ships but is still paying the full price for all 12. 

The other side of this is maybe the government wants to back out of buying 15 surface warships, and 3 billion for a couple of amphib ships for "humanitarian relief" is a more palatable. If they buy half the new CSCs planned and buy a couple of discount boats from France they save a lot and still show token support for the Canadian shipyards.

I for one don't see it as beyond any Canadian government to buy 6 AOPS and 6 CSCs to replace the frigates and destroyers.  Throw in some flashy new boats to say they are expanding our capabilities and most Canadian's wouldn't bat an eye at halving the contracts in the NSPS.
 
Could mean more work for our shipyards too, Remember they were built for the Russians, that means the hanger, elevators, and other equipment is to Russian specs, what work needs to be done so Canadian helicopters can launch from those ships?

Second point Remember when our new supply ships were also planned to be floating hospitals? well if a mistral can do it the government could buy upto all three and say "hey now we have all the capabilities we promised, just in more ships"
 
I admit I haven't really been following this a whole lot, but how far in the "Russianization" process did DCNS go before all of this happened?  The French Navy already operate 3, so if it's not too far in (or hasn't happened yet) then maybe that won't be an issue?
 
I honestly don't know my self though i assume things like accommodating Russian helicopters, installing Russian electronics and such, in other news "defense watch" for those who follow the news by thee who shall not be spoken is reported that a source has told them DCNS did lobby Ottawa about the mistrals during the French Presidents recent trip to Canada, as well as the CSC program.
 
This is like deciding you need a new bicycle and buying a snow blower instead. This vessel as configured would fill '0' mandates outlined in the CFDS.
 
I wonder how much of the specs really changed for the Russians? The French have hedged their bets nicely, selling these ones to non-Russians while still keeping the door open to the Russians if they play nice and replacing it with another one.

this is what I have found so far in the way of changes, which seem to work for us http://www.janes.com/article/41532/russia-orders-ka-52k-helicopters-for-mistral-class-lhds

The two Mistral-class vessels in production for the Russian Navy have been modified compared with the baseline version for the French Navy. These changes include changes in hull construction to enable them to be used in northern latitudes, including in ice conditions. The height of the vessels has also been increased due to modifications to the ships' internal hangars to allow them to accommodate large helicopters like the Ka-52K and Ka-27PS.

Additionally the vessels have been modified for the installation of extra armament, including anti-air systems and large calibre automatic weapon stations for combating surface threats. The logic behind increasing the vessels' onboard armament is to enable the Russian Navy to use them in the open sea with a smaller escort.


and here http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/France-Shows-Russia-The-True-Way-7-21-2013.asp
The Russian Navy has made some changes, in cooperation with the French, of the existing Mistral design. The Russian version of the Mistral will be called the Vladivostok Class and carry 30 helicopters (compared to 16 on the French version). The Vladivostoks will be armed with two AK-630 multibarrel 30mm autocannon for anti-missile defense. There will also be two quad-launchers of shoulder fired type anti-aircraft missiles (with a 5 kilometer range and does well against helicopters) and two or more DP-65 55mm grenade launchers for defense against divers.

The Vladivostoks will also be winterized for use in arctic conditions. The hull will be strengthened to deal with ice and the well deck door will completely close. The flight deck will have a deicing system and the ship will be modified to operate for extended periods in arctic conditions. There is also different electronics and this means a different arrangement of radomes and antennae.
 
Posts by two professors:

Steve Saideman (Carleton):

Maple Mistrals? Mais Non
http://saideman.blogspot.ca/2014/11/maple-mistrals-mais-non.html

Roland Paris (Ottawa U.):

Mistral Misunderstandings
http://cips.uottawa.ca/mistral-misunderstandings/

Mark
Ottawa
 
If I understand correctly, we had a brief window to accquire one of the Bay class amphibs the UK recently divested themselves of.  It didn't fly for several reasons, mainly budgetary considerations and we already got our fingers badly burned with the Upholders.  So, "no" on two counts.  And the previous exploratons and stand up of the amphib unit was quietly shelved some years ago now.  We won't be rushing headlong into any decision again like that any time soon. 

And as Pat say's the Mistrals are not what we need, or can afford.  (Which by the twists of logic they do seem to work under at times must make it tempting in some quarters)
 
I have no doubt the French would like Canada to buy them and solve a political headache for themselves and then later sell more to the Russians when things have calmed down a bit. I suspect that if we did buy them, then you would see a change in how Canada involves itself overseass, just as the C-17's allow us to do things we never really had the capability for previously. The Mistral might allow us to project ourselves and our interests on the geopolitical field in a way we can't currently. It would also require some interesting negotiations in to regard to a Allied air wing operating off of them. Given the expeditionary nature of our oversea's involvements, they may make more sense than we think.
 
Anybody who thinks the Russians will not take some action if those ships are not handed over is dreaming. They have clearly staked some local strategic designs on them (artic ice for example), which implies a disruption to their plans is intolerable.

If the prospect of no delivery becomes a fact, those ships will be on the bottom in a harbour in France, or the Russians will take some action to harm pretty much any country that takes them. Putin does not screw around, he might walk away from the financial cost (maybe), but he will not be robbed of an asset like these ships which can can be used against him. This situation is not analogous to the Kidd class destroyers and Iran 35 years ago. It is potentially much more serious. Russia is strongly and swiftly re-emerging as a sophisticated global military power.
 
Not so much of a pessimist as you but I would take note that the Russians are already aboard the vessels.

I have seen Russian vessels (trawlers admittedly - but made in Norway and Spain) after Russians have made themselves at home.

The Russians would be better advised to let Canada, or some other poor blighters, have them.  They don't even have to engage in intentional sabotage, let alone a spectacular like sinking them.  Their unintentional efforts will cripple those ships in no time flat.
 
There are quite a few Russians who would be happy not to have them and not have to pay for them. As noted Russia could still get the same class of ship at a later date and a out of court settlement might achieve an attractive price for them. Russia might say a lot but do little and see what they can squeeze out of the French. At worse they just cut gas supplies in Europe, which means we can sell them more.
 
Meanwhile - Whatever happened to the Joint Support Ship?

Here's the Karel Doorman - Follow the link for a video tour by a member of her crew (in Dutch) https://youtu.be/MQ45uLk667Q

Here's the link to the Marine Schepen article http://marineschepen.nl/schepen/jss.html  (the article is also in Dutch but I google translated it)

400,000,000 Euros for a flaming great floating island that you can do with as you will......
 
and she has already conducted her first mission

Even though Karel Doorman had just finished sea trials and had not yet been commissioned, on 6 November she was sent on a three-month deployment to West Africa to deliver aid to Ebola-struck countries. She was loaded with different goods in 91 containers and 155 vehicles, including ambulances. On 18 November the ship arrived in Freetown, Sierra Leone for her first offload. After her third offload in Liberia and the replenishment of RFA Argus the ship returned to the Netherlands to pick up another load.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Doorman-class_support_ship
 
The Dutch, intelligently, had most of the metal-bashing done in Romania:
http://navaltoday.com/2013/07/25/hnlms-karel-doorman-departs-romania/

HNLMS-Karel-Doorman-Departs-Romania.jpg


Mark
Ottawa
 
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