AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Ex-Dragoon]

MacKay: Ottawa to restart process to replace navy ships

I figured we would not be waiting too long for it to start up again.

 

[jollyjacktar]

True enough, but the procurement process is so bloody long and convoluted it will still be many years before a replacement comes through the pipeline.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

True enough, but the procurement process is so bloody long and convoluted it will still be many years before a replacement comes through the pipeline.

I think though they are doing it at the right time (within a couple of years) vice a decade into the process.

 

[gvg]

What I''m trying to find out is why this program is so expensive (or the Dutch so cheap).

A quick glance at both the Canadian JSS and the Dutch JSS lets me to believe that the major difference between the two is that the Canadian JSS would get an ice-breaking hull. The difference in price is significant though. A Canadian JSS was estimatied to cost around C$700 mln (in 2004), a Dutch is, according a Dutch MoD report, around C$400 mln (in 2003). Heck, according to that Dutch MoD report, even a Helicopter Support Ship (12 helicopters and six landing spots vs. 6 helicopters and 2 landingspots for the JSS) would be more than C$150mln cheaper than the Canadian JSS.

Is that ice-breaking hull indeed around C$300 mln, has the Dutch MoD significantly underestimated the price (they do have a pretty good track record with their Zeven Provincien-class, only 15% over budget in 10 years and that includes corrections for inflation), or am I missing something else?

 

[jollyjacktar]

I think though they are doing it at the right time (within a couple of years) vice a decade into the process.

Don't mind me.  I'm just a bitter Tanker Wanker.  There was a committee in from Ottawa back in 99 who promised 4 in the water for 05.  I bet that it will still be 10 years before we take possession for sea trials. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

What I''m trying to find out is why this program is so expensive (or the Dutch so cheap).

A quick glance at both the Canadian JSS and the Dutch JSS lets me to believe that the major difference between the two is that the Canadian JSS would get an ice-breaking hull. The difference in price is significant though. A Canadian JSS was estimatied to cost around C$700 mln (in 2004), a Dutch is, according a Dutch MoD report, around C$400 mln (in 2003). Heck, according to that Dutch MoD report, even a Helicopter Support Ship (12 helicopters and six landing spots vs. 6 helicopters and 2 landingspots for the JSS) would be more than C$150mln cheaper than the Canadian JSS.

Is that ice-breaking hull indeed around C$300 mln, has the Dutch MoD significantly underestimated the price (they do have a pretty good track record with their Zeven Provincien-class, only 15% over budget in 10 years and that includes corrections for inflation), or am I missing something else?

Personally I have no idea but if overseas can do it cheaper and deliver a ship on time I am for  building it overseas.

With JSS gone now, we might as well forget that acroym.

A helicopter Support Ship is not going to provide our ships with fuel and ammo as well as an AOR will. I would look at it for the BHS side of things but not JSS.

 

[Kirkhill]

When did a Canadian yard last launch a new build ship over, say,  5000 tonnes?

Here's the Aussie example - HMAS Sirius. 25,000 tonnes

"2006 will see the commissioning of the Navy’s new support ship HMAS SIRIUS three years ahead of its original in service date, at one third the cost and six years after it was first proposed in the 2000 Defence White Paper."

And:

http://www.navy.gov.au/w/index.php/HMAS_Sirius

Proposed..................................2000
Defined.....................................2001
Revised.....................................2003 (80% of Requirements, 40% of the Budget, 50% of the Time)
Hull Purchase.............................2004 (3 June) (Existing double-hulled Korean Tanker in yard)
Conversion  Conrract .................2005  (60,000,000 AUD)
Commissioned............................2006 (16 September)

That particular hull is a bit slow at 16 knots but perhaps something similar?

Let's assume that we can get rid of the ice requirement
(CPFs and DDHs are not ice classified and it is them that an AOR would be replenishing,
(Northern Patrols are to be handled by AOPVs and they will be operating from shore bases)

Would this meet an immediate need at a reasonable price in a form that a Canadian yard could handle?

If so it would free up cash for both the SCSC project and possibly one simple Rotterdam/Bay Class Transport.

Commercially and Technically it is viable.
Politically it is probably viable (Cheap, Fast, "NON-Military"-ie logistic with DART possibilities)
C17s demonstrated what is possible in the procurement area when the will exists.

 

[karl28]

              I am just wondering if there is any AOR that are already in service with our allies that may still have some good life in them and that we could buy / Lease from our Allies till  the Canadian Government gets the cash to build new ones ?  Just so we don't have to lose this valuable capability.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

              I am just wondering if there is any AOR that are already in service with our allies that may still have some good life in them and that we could buy / Lease from our Allies till  the Canadian Government gets the cash to build new ones ?  Just so we don't have to lose this valuable capability.

Lets please not go down this road....

However a brief glimpse through Janes and AORs are one of those ships that a lot of navies (like ours) run into the ground. The ones that we could get are in not much better shape then what we have now, in fact I would put ours near the top.

 

[karl28]

Ex-Dragoon 

                    Well I guess that idea is most definitely not going to work if there all that bad of shape .  How much life is there left in the ones the Canadian Navy operates ?  Could they stay in service till a replacement is built ?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ex-Dragoon 

                    Well I guess that idea is most definitely not going to work if there all that bad of shape .   How much life is there left in the ones the Canadian Navy operates ?  Could they stay in service till a replacement is built ?

They will have to. Maybe with the JSS concept dead, naval planners will be able to design a working AOR class from the keel up sonner rather then later, or as I have advocated in the past. Buy overseas!

 

[karl28]

Ex-Dragoon 


           I just hope the Government who ever gets in next will  see how important it is to have the AOR and get the ball rolling ASAP in getting a replacement that way the Navy won't lose this capabilitie

 

[Neill McKay]

How much life is there left in the ones the Canadian Navy operates ?  Could they stay in service till a replacement is built ?

You can keep a ship in service as long as you want, but the cost of doing so escalates dramatically.  (You can replace bits of hull and machinery forever; theoretically you'd eventually get a ship that resembles a very old axe that has had the handle replaced three times and the head replaced twice...)  In practice what it comes down to is eventually the ship is just not economical to maintain anymore.

 

[Stoker]

With the amount of problems the Perserver is having with her boilers, I can't see the ship lasting for another 5 to 10 years without a major overhaul/refit. You can only overhaul a plant like that so many times.

 

[geo]

The "saving" to HMAS Sirius probably comes from buying an existing Tanker hull and making modifications from there.... not bad if you can find a suitable candidate.... but you won't find an ice strengthened hull that will fit that bill.

 

[Kirkhill]

but you won't find an ice strengthened hull that will fit that bill.

Stipulated geo.

Let's assume that we can get rid of the ice requirement
(CPFs and DDHs are not ice classified and it is them that an AOR would be replenishing,
(Northern Patrols are to be handled by AOPVs and they will be operating from shore bases)

I don't happen to think that the ice-strengthened requirement is particularly critical for a vessel that is needed principally  operate with CPFs and DDHs which are also not "ice-capable".  The current AORs aren't ice-capable, and, to boot, are also single-hulled (as I understand them).

 

[geo]

Kirkhill... there is that new port in Nanasivik to look after & replenish.... so that AOR might have to do a couple of runs each summer - ensuring topped up tanks for customers.

 

[FSTO]

Kirkhill... there is that new port in Nanasivik to look after & replenish.... so that AOR might have to do a couple of runs each summer - ensuring topped up tanks for customers.

It is easier to send a bulk fuel carrier (ice strengthend of course) to replensih the fuel farm then to send our HVU up there.

 

[Kirkhill]

If they can't deliver on time and on budget because of a lack of infrastructure, skilled trades and current experience then the government needs to be able to go off-shore to meet time-critical needs.

Having said that, the Canadian industry DOES need to be supported and revitalized - but not doing the same old things, the same old ways in the same old yards.  It will take a decade or more for a shipbuilding industry to be re-imagined and recreated.  And if it is done with Edward's, and my, concern for productivity in mind it will be built on the backs of robots and not on a limited supply of skilled trades.

In the meantime the CF and Coast Guard need vessels.

 

[geo]

As I have pointed out, we need a shipbuilding industry that builds ships all the time VS a whole bunch in a very short time ... with nothing afterwards... this is how we got into trouble in the 1st place.