AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Underway]

That is a big ole boat. How big is it in the grand scale of things compared to other ships of its role?

Depends on how broad you define its role. Using the NATO definition here:

Oiler Replenishment (Naval) (AOR). Ship of at least 140 metres capable of providing rapid replenishment of POL (petrol, oil, lubricants) and solid store products.

Protecteur is about 174m long and ~20000 tonnes. This is right in the ballpark for a lot of allied navy AOR's, which are usually between 18'000 and 26'000 tonnes.

 

[PrairieFella]

I have hung around enough sailors to confidently state that it's a big ole ship, not a big ole boat.

Just turning a phrase haha. I'm aware it's a ship.

 

[PrairieFella]

Depends on how broad you define its role. Using the NATO definition here:

Oiler Replenishment (Naval) (AOR). Ship of at least 140 metres capable of providing rapid replenishment of POL (petrol, oil, lubricants) and solid store products.

Protecteur is about 174m long and ~20000 tonnes. This is right in the ballpark for a lot of allied navy AOR's, which are usually between 18'000 and 26'000 tonnes.

Thanks! So she'll be very valuable as part of NATO battlegroups (or whatever the term is in Water Speak) since she can plug and play as an equivalent with allied ships?

 

[dimsum]

Thanks! So she'll be very valuable as part of NATO battlegroups (or whatever the term is in Water Speak) since she can plug and play as an equivalent with allied ships?

Yes.

And it’s Task Group.

 

[Furniture]

So this is my biggest pet peave. There is an engineering difference and a specific definition here.

View attachment 89990

This is why submarines are always called boats. Because their centre of gravity is below their freeboard.

So a kayak is a ship... interesting.

 

[YZT580]

So a kayak is a ship... interesting.

only if you spend 30 bucks to break a bottle of bubbly over the prow whilst announcing its name to the world. Otherwise, it is just a kayak

 

[Underway]

So a kayak is a ship... interesting.

Nope. Unloaded a kayaks centre of gravity is below its freeboard. Freeboard is the first "deck" (or top of the gunnels) above the waterline. And as a kayak has only one deck and the rest of the kayak is below that deck its a boat.

The turning part is a function of there the centre of gravity is and not critical to the definition. If you start playing with the propulsion forces and loading you can get different turning results. Wind loading on sails for example.

 

[OldSolduer]

Nope. Unloaded a kayaks centre of gravity is below its freeboard. Freeboard is the first "deck" (or top of the gunnels) above the waterline. And as a kayak has only one deck and the rest of the kayak is below that deck its a boat.

The turning part is a function of there the centre of gravity is and not critical to the definition. If you start playing with the propulsion forces and loading you can get different turning results. Wind loading on sails for example.

Ships can carry boats - boats can't carry boats. Right?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ships can carry boats - boats can't carry boats. Right?

boats carry boats (tenders) all the time

 

[OldSolduer]

boats carry boats (tenders) all the time

Like Chicken tenders? Scuse me but my crayons taste like chicken....

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Just turning a phrase haha. I'm aware it's a ship.

Years ago someone on one of our forums stated that, "A boat is what you get into, when a ship sinks."

 

[Underway]

Ships can carry boats - boats can't carry boats. Right?

30000 ton Typhoon submarine ( a boat) can carry whatever the hell it wants!

You could conceivably design a boat that's big enough to carry a ship

 

[Rainbow1910]

Captain Drew Graham (Director of Naval Requirements) recently did a Speakers Event for the Naval Association of Canada and had some interesting information to put forward to the public regarding the JSS and an unmanned aircraft program planned for it. All of the information is taken from his slideshow, that I will link at the bottom for anybody interested.

- Heavy lift aircraft, will be able to lift a single loaded pallet of supplies and conduct ISR.

- Will be operated aboard Protecteur class ships and primarily utilized for vertical replenishment.

- Largely automated, "pilotless" operations.

- Operated by specially trained UAV operators, which are send alongside aircraft when tasked.

- Currently unfunded, 2031 to 2033 introduction timeline.

LX-300 is shown as a potential example photograph in the slideshow.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Captain Drew Graham (Director of Naval Requirements) recently did a Speakers Event for the Naval Association of Canada and had some interesting information to put forward to the public regarding the JSS and an unmanned aircraft program planned for it. All of the information is taken from his slideshow, that I will link at the bottom for anybody interested.

- Heavy lift aircraft, will be able to lift a single loaded pallet of supplies and conduct ISR.

- Will be operated aboard Protecteur class ships and primarily utilized for vertical replenishment.

- Largely automated, "pilotless" operations.

- Operated by specially trained UAV operators, which are send alongside aircraft when tasked.

- Currently unfunded, 2031 to 2033 introduction timeline.

LX-300 is shown as a potential example photograph in the slideshow.

So many different UAV’s were mentioned. Every class of ship is getting a different vehicle.
Near the 22 minute mark where he speaks about Multi-mission Corvette and of note; paying off last of Kingston class in 2029.

 

[Navy_Pete]

So this is my biggest pet peave. There is an engineering difference and a specific definition here.

View attachment 89990

This is why submarines are always called boats. Because their centre of gravity is below their freeboard.

Where did you get that definition? It's a definition, not the definition, with any number of exceptions.

Another is that boats are smaller craft meant for inland water navigation (small lakes, rivers, canals etc) and ships are meant for open ocean. That doesn't necessarily translate either, as you get exceptions like tankers on the Great Lakes. Some people will say 'boats go on ships', which works for zodiacs, RIBs, whalers etc but then you have heavy lift ships.

Vessels/ships gets used interchangeably in IMO standards, and classification is based on tonnage and function. But people still call larger fishing vessels or tugs boats, so there really isn't any one single definition.

Neither have any solid engineering or legal definition, so whoever told you that was it is selling their own personal definition.

 

[Underway]

Where did you get that definition? It's a definition, not the definition, with any number of exceptions.

Talking to more than one naval architect, and some etymological research. I'll go with their definition because its an engineering one.

And tug boats are not actually boats, its a reminant of the language from when tugs were actually boats, with oars. Hence why we normally just say tugs. Sail boats vs sailing ships is probably the best example of how that definition works.

As far as inland vs open ocean, thats a function of where they are most useful and work the best. A boat in the open ocean is often in a dangerous place, a ship inland has to much draft. They are not named for where they operate, they operate because there because of their design characteristics are advantagous in that place. And their name comes from the engineering and design characteristics. Over time people think its because of where they operate, but they've got it backwords.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Talking to more than one naval architect, and some etymological research. I'll go with their definition because its an engineering one.

And tug boats are not actually boats, its a reminant of the language from when tugs were actually boats, with oars. Hence why we normally just say tugs. Sail boats vs sailing ships is probably the best example of how that definition works.

As far as inland vs open ocean, thats a function of where they are most useful and work the best. A boat in the open ocean is often in a dangerous place, a ship inland has to much draft. They are not named for where they operate, they operate because there because of their design characteristics are advantagous in that place. And their name comes from the engineering and design characteristics. Over time people think its because of where they operate, but they've got it backwords.

I think that's some nav archs coming up with a 'backronym' for the definition while ignoring exceptions to that rule (kayaks were already pointed out).

Globally 'vessels' is used in IMO and class rules in their definitions (which is all written by a lot of engineers, techs and other mariners), probably because ships/boats is all over the place, but I think generally ships are big, boats are small, with the context of what is 'big and small' changing over time as manufacturing change, what kind of vessel you are talking about etc, so neither of them have any accepted engineering definition.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think that's some nav archs coming up with a 'backronym' for the definition while ignoring exceptions to that rule (kayaks were already pointed out).

Globally 'vessels' is used in IMO and class rules in their definitions (which is all written by a lot of engineers, techs and other mariners), probably because ships/boats is all over the place, but I think generally ships are big, boats are small, with the context of what is 'big and small' changing over time as manufacturing change, what kind of vessel you are talking about etc, so neither of them have any accepted engineering definition.

Imagine using length as a guide when it comes to this

 

[GR66]

Imagine using length as a guide when it comes to this

Personally I'm very opposed to anyone wanting to use length as a guideline!