Halifax Tar
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Retired RCN said:
Do we want to have AIS operational in a time of war ? Aren't ships movements very hush hush, despite what FB and twitter accounts post ?
AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
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Do we want to have AIS operational in a time of war ? Aren't ships movements very hush hush, despite what FB and twitter accounts post ?
Colin Parkinson
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Retired RCN said:
Depends how you define "war", a regional conflict will likley see AIS continue, in fact "neutral" ships in the area will most definitely broadcast AIS in the hopes of not being targeted by long range weapons. AIS will be the new version of painting a national flag and spotlighting it on the side of the ship.
If you have a long running standoff with fleets at sea for an extended period of time, your AOR's are going to have to detach and make a run for supplies, with the limited number of escorts NATO has, they may end up sailing alone or with one escort. Sinking the AOR's is an excellent way to force a fleet to retreat without a direct conflict as fuel runs low.
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Colin P said:
Small Skirmishes warships certainly won't be squawking AIS and more than likely "neutral" ships will be vacating the area. Full out conflicts the system will be taken down. AOR's are not going to be sailing alone and will be well protected.
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Retired RCN said:
Hey!!! Congratulations on your retirement!!!
Colin Parkinson
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Imagine a stand off between China and the west over Taiwan, The west parks a fleet near there and needs constant resupply, the major assets are going to need most of the escorts. The USN has around 60 escort vessels for all it's operations and ship cycles, so you can likley count on 20-30 at best. Guessing that the combined allied fleet might generate 12 more.
Just resupplying the fleet is going to take significant resources with the nearest safe port being near Manila some 570nm away. Likely you have resupply ships going to and from multiple ports, if they each need an escort for each, you run out of ships quickly. I suspect you would see 2 AORs protected by 1 escort with perhaps 1 attack sub patrolling the shipping lanes used by resupply vessel.
If I was planner for the PLAN, I would have merchant ships at sea at the start, armed with anti-ship missiles to hunt the resupply ships and sink them without warning. Their massive fishing fleet would be their eyes and ears, along with other methods.
Just resupplying the fleet is going to take significant resources with the nearest safe port being near Manila some 570nm away. Likely you have resupply ships going to and from multiple ports, if they each need an escort for each, you run out of ships quickly. I suspect you would see 2 AORs protected by 1 escort with perhaps 1 attack sub patrolling the shipping lanes used by resupply vessel.
If I was planner for the PLAN, I would have merchant ships at sea at the start, armed with anti-ship missiles to hunt the resupply ships and sink them without warning. Their massive fishing fleet would be their eyes and ears, along with other methods.
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Well, since everyone posted what I intimated...
Warships AIS is modified. It can be turned on and off first of all. It never presents the destination, tonnage, cargo etc... of the ship, though it often has the length. It also rarely presents the ships name. It might just say Canadian Warship for example.
And yes its often turned off on operations and exercises. As soon as you go into the box you turn it off.
@Colin P you are not wrong in your analysis
AOR's are High Value Units. It would be the main target of many attacks, because it's loss significantly inhibits the strategic mobility of a task group. It limits range and time on patrol. This is why when you orient your task group you can leave the AOR outside of the threat box (in the rear with the gear) with minimal escort. The other option is protect it by placing it in the middle of the task group and orienting the task group along the threat axis with it being the furthest away). This first is the choice for Asterix, and the second is the prefered option for Protecteur.
Warships AIS is modified. It can be turned on and off first of all. It never presents the destination, tonnage, cargo etc... of the ship, though it often has the length. It also rarely presents the ships name. It might just say Canadian Warship for example.
And yes its often turned off on operations and exercises. As soon as you go into the box you turn it off.
@Colin P you are not wrong in your analysis
AOR's are High Value Units. It would be the main target of many attacks, because it's loss significantly inhibits the strategic mobility of a task group. It limits range and time on patrol. This is why when you orient your task group you can leave the AOR outside of the threat box (in the rear with the gear) with minimal escort. The other option is protect it by placing it in the middle of the task group and orienting the task group along the threat axis with it being the furthest away). This first is the choice for Asterix, and the second is the prefered option for Protecteur.
Oldgateboatdriver
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Underway is correct.
In Gulf War one, however, even with Protecteur, the USN ran the first option: Threat box for combat vessels and Rear area box for the supply train. The supply train had its own escort force fooprotection and the whole rear area, escort included, was run by Canada - the only non American command at sea.
So, in such case, Colin, it is the combat vessels that rotate in and out of the rear to refuel under protection, except unusual circumstances (such as getting caught in unexpected action and not having enough fuel to go to the rear) when a single support vessel, escorted appropriately, must go in the threat box to resupply someone. Happened twice in GW1 IIRC.
In Gulf War one, however, even with Protecteur, the USN ran the first option: Threat box for combat vessels and Rear area box for the supply train. The supply train had its own escort force fooprotection and the whole rear area, escort included, was run by Canada - the only non American command at sea.
So, in such case, Colin, it is the combat vessels that rotate in and out of the rear to refuel under protection, except unusual circumstances (such as getting caught in unexpected action and not having enough fuel to go to the rear) when a single support vessel, escorted appropriately, must go in the threat box to resupply someone. Happened twice in GW1 IIRC.
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Oldgateboatdriver said:
That doesn’t always work. IIRC, PROTECTEUR was so far forward sometimes in the lead up to Gulf War 1 that the “escorts” had to come up the Gulf to her to get fuel. In hindsight, it was a bit stupid...
Halifax Tar
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SeaKingTacco said:
509 and 510's use during Op Apollo also unofficially renamed them as "Battle-Tankers".
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Dimsum said:Why yes, having a floating gas station in the threat area is a great idea. :
Did their COs not think it was ridiculous?
Halifax Tar
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Dimsum said:Why yes, having a floating gas station in the threat area is a great idea. :
Did their COs not think it was ridiculous?
No idea. They don't usually explain doctrine and use to OD storesmen. At least back then they didnt...
Colin Parkinson
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Just listening to a video where the US was considering turning one of the Iowa class into a "Battle tanker" with a weight reduction program so it could hold more fuel.
quadrapiper
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Didn't one or both also do a certain amount of pirate-chasing, somewhat more recently?Halifax Tar said:
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Howie1 said:Kinda like sending the Huron through an active mine area to re-open the Canadian embassy in Kuwait without a minesweeper escort so they could have a good photo op. Good thing we had our fish finder...er i mean Mas sonar.
Funny story about that. That fish finder was at the time the best mine detection sonar in the entire Collation of the Willing. No one took mine warfare seriously in the later 80's early 90's except the Baltic states and the Belgians. The bigger navies were 'blue water" who fought the cold war on the high seas.
If you can detect non-metallic morphic shoals of fish you can easily detect floating mines.
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Dimsum said:Why yes, having a floating gas station in the threat area is a great idea. :
Did their COs not think it was ridiculous?
Against what threat exactly. They were doing interdiction operations to stop the flow of drugs and money into Afghanistan etc... or they were supplying the US Navy Amphib ships in sending aircraft into Afghanistan.
As for the JSS, it's designed to be the gas station in the threat area. That's the entire doctrinal focus of the ship. Where others can't/won't go, JSS will. The strategic advantages may outweigh the risks in many situations.
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27 May 1941.
18 months into WW2.
Halifax, St John's, Reykjavik and Londonderry acted as four refueling stations for four separate parcels of escorts for a single convoy. The JSS allows one parcel of escorts to conduct the entire mission. It also doesn't require Londonderry and Reykjavik to have fuel available. Fuel being delivered by the escorted convoy in the face of enemy submarine activity.
18 months into WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Ocean_Escort_Force
Halifax, St John's, Reykjavik and Londonderry acted as four refueling stations for four separate parcels of escorts for a single convoy. The JSS allows one parcel of escorts to conduct the entire mission. It also doesn't require Londonderry and Reykjavik to have fuel available. Fuel being delivered by the escorted convoy in the face of enemy submarine activity.
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