AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Colin Parkinson]

Lack of planning on the part of DND and their political masters comes at a price.

 

[Dana381]

Ok. so I Just realized my notifications for this thread were going to my junk folder but all the other threads were not, Weird!

Thank you Oldgateboatdriver and Chief Engineer, your posts are very informative.

When the original lease was drawn up the GOC was in a bind and Davie had them by the gonads, I bet when the JSS come online the lease could be renegotiated with much more favorable terms. Davie faced with selling the ship or taking a less profitable lease would likely choose the later. Does the GOC already operate ships like mentioned here?

i.e. that it become operated by merchant mariner employed directly by the crown as employees of DND, who then answer to the RCN for support requirements. That would be cheaper in terms of personnel and operations costs than a RCN operated vessel.

If not renegotiating the lease would likely be cheaper than setting up a new department and all the red tape that would go with it.

My main reason for asking the question was because people on here seem to be in the know of things early, I was wondering what the rumor mill was saying about it. If the DND likes what they see and are considering keeping Asterix on i'm sure we'll hear about it here first! 

 

[Underway]

Second, before we call leased vessels "expensive" or "over budget", we better be looking at true cost for the RCN. The leased vessel is known fixed price to start with and includes everything provided by the contract.

This is a provision of service contract not a lease, the distinction is important.  There was a budget in the RCN for that contract and it's been completely blown through. Much of that cost was the unfinished nature of the construction that the Asterix was in when she arrived and the fixes were paid for by the RCN.
Ship builders never ever pay for their own mistakes or errors.  Canada does.

It is only when the RCN choose to ask that the supplier exceed what is provided by the contract that the costs increases. So if you are over budget, it's probably because the RCN wants more done by the ship than what was originally negotiated.

Given that its a provision of service contract yes I would agree with this to an extent.  And its a complicated one where I suspect the government hasn't done their homework as much as Davie had, which means we're probably overcharged for quite a few things.

 

[Stoker]

This is a provision of service contract not a lease, the distinction is important.  There was a budget in the RCN for that contract and it's been completely blown through. Much of that cost was the unfinished nature of the construction that the Asterix was in when she arrived and the fixes were paid for by the RCN.
Ship builders never ever pay for their own mistakes or errors.  Canada does.

Given that its a provision of service contract yes I would agree with this to an extent.  And its a complicated one where I suspect the government hasn't done their homework as much as Davie had, which means we're probably overcharged for quite a few things.

Yes she was in quite a state when she came to Halifax and was no coincidence that she had to make it by the 31st of Jan as per the agreement, hell the painting wasn't all done. All to for Davie to proclaim "on time and on budget".

 

[Patski]

For my personal info, and it might be interesting for some other people too I guess,  Is operating the Asterix more expensive than using the services of other countries for that kind of stuff?  I mean, obviously, we only have one of these, so we need to ask other countries for supplies on the way?

 

[a_majoor]

A bit out of left field, but perhaps a "small honking ship" might be worth considering. While the"Stem Landing Vessel" is really a landing craft, the idea of having a rear ramp leading into a clear deck space would make it much quicker and easier to load and offload a ship at dock, especially with containerized or modular cargos. The picture in the USNI article shows a large helicopter deck, so moving cargo around via helicopter becomes a possibility, or you could fit it with derricks or other devices to lift and transfer cargo as well.

This also becomes interesting since the USMC is also considering this for their Littoral Force, which is supposed to go ashore and fire long range anti ship missiles at enemy ships (preumably Chinese, in the current context). Being able to quickly load "containerized" missiles eliminates the middleman, and then the ship becomes a combatent - linking to off board sensors to aim and fire. Nothing to stop you from using anti air missiles, or rockets to launch long range torpedoes to make the ship more versatile.

The current design obviously has limitations, mostly becasue it is slow, but using a different hull form and engineering plant should net a modular hull capable of being used for multiple purposes.

https://news.usni.org/tag/stern-landing-vessel

 

[Colin Parkinson]

or a couple of these. They could support domestic training with LAV's and tanks. Loaned to NATO, PacRim events, supporting DND and other government agencies in the Arctic and the ever sellable UN  and Humanitarian ops. run them with a mix of Reg, reserve and civilian crews, slowly increasing the Reserve side as capacity grows. Plus you can use them for training Merchant Marine Cadets as well, helping to maintain Canada's rep for good Merchant Marine Officers.

  Damen LST 120    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCTPSoaUtwk

 

[FM07]

The bunking arrangements on Asterix are phenomenal! Every one gets their own pricate cabin, every cabin ha their own bathroom AND shower with heated floors. Every cabin has a tv and WiFi and all the cabins are networked so you can jsut sit in your cabin and skype with family, watch Netflix by yourself, or play video games against others around the ship. Or you could go to the mess, which are also as nice. The gym is HUGE, and the unclass internet is top notch. Not sure how good the food is though, just haven't heard about it.

Hi there, as far as we know so far, will the new JSS ships have the same accommodations?

Thanks,

 

[Sub_Guy]

Hi there, as far as we know so far, will the new JSS ships have the same accommodations?

No. I'm sure the accommodations will be better than the old replenishment vessels, but there's no way they'll match what is on the Asterix..

 

[Stoker]

Hi there, as far as we know so far, will the new JSS ships have the same accommodations?

Thanks,

They'll be nice but not that nice.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Merchant Marine world had to seriously up it's game to get people to go to sea and even with these nice accommodations they struggle to fill spots, at least pre-Covid.

 

[Kirkhill]

Its true that due to environmental considerations we don't RAS about 60 degrees, however apparently the reason why Asterix doesn't go above is because the company who owns the ship is not insured to go above. If the RCN owned the ship, the RCN would assume the risk and operate up there if needed ie filling up the tanks at the Arctic fueling depot. I imagine the insurance company not willing to insure a large ship filled with fueling in an environmentally sensitive area with ice.

As for cost, I suspect the cost wasn't as cheap as the RCN had hoped.

I am pretty confident that the RCN could cover the cost of a limited duration Lloyds or DNV policy for a vessel if they wanted to.  Anything is insurable if you are willing to pay the premiums.

As for the overages - as OGBD speculates - I expect that the vessel was hired with low expectations and, like most things Canadian, ended up doing everything that was asked of her so she was asked for more. 

And one of the problems with leasing is the same problems that livery companies had - the horses get rode hard and put away wet.  And all FedNav needs is to get 5 years service out of that hull.

 

[Underway]

Hi there, as far as we know so far, will the new JSS ships have the same accommodations?

Thanks,

Can confirm its a no.  6 person messes for the MS and below.  4,3 pers cabins for PO's.  CPO's have 2 pers cabins.  Officers have 4,2,1 pers cabins.  Each Offcier and PO cabin has an onsuite heads/washplace shared with the one other cabin (ie each onsuite serves two cabins).  Messes have the same setup as a frigate right now with the communal heads/washplaces.

Of course XO, CO, SO, and CXN arrangements are more private.

 

[FM07]

Can confirm its a no.  6 person messes for the MS and below.  4,3 pers cabins for PO's.  CPO's have 2 pers cabins.  Officers have 4,2,1 pers cabins.  Each Offcier and PO cabin has an onsuite heads/washplace shared with the one other cabin (ie each onsuite serves two cabins).  Messes have the same setup as a frigate right now with the communal heads/washplaces.

Of course XO, CO, SO, and CXN arrangements are more private.

Thanks for that, either way these ships are going to be awesome for our Navy, it would be an honor to serve on one.

 

[Gorgo]

Can confirm its a no.  6 person messes for the MS and below.  4,3 pers cabins for PO's.  CPO's have 2 pers cabins.  Officers have 4,2,1 pers cabins.  Each Offcier and PO cabin has an onsuite heads/washplace shared with the one other cabin (ie each onsuite serves two cabins).  Messes have the same setup as a frigate right now with the communal heads/washplaces.

Of course XO, CO, SO, and CXN arrangements are more private.

I remember on the Saguenay back in the late 1980s that the engineer junior ranks were in one big mess of about 40 bunks.  I myself was in the aftmost mess by the propellers and that had 24 spaces.  Hearing what's going into the new ships, I can say it'll be a luxury.

 

[Spencer100]

Davie hard at it.

https://www.facebook.com/chantierdavie/photos/a.507767432609909/3358740717512552

G-LAM.....Global Logistics Aviation and Medical ship

That thing doesn't look expensive at all. Lol (I love that it has a Cyclone, CV-22, UAV and Chinook)

To sell the Liberals they should have dropped the 57mm and add CNG or BE powered

 

[Sub_Guy]

Oh cool, it's the JSS (true JSS..) that was envisioned back in the mid-90's. It's been updated with fancier graphics and different aircraft...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Oh cool, it's the JSS (true JSS..) that was envisioned back in the mid-90's. It's been updated with fancier graphics and different aircraft...

The "Big Honking Ship"

 

[MilEME09]

Oh cool, it's the JSS (true JSS..) that was envisioned back in the mid-90's. It's been updated with fancier graphics and different aircraft...

The one cancelled because it became a beast that would devour budgets? As much as a ship like that could be useful, we would never get one, with Astrix, two JSS being built by Seaspan, I doubt the government would commit to such an order. I would also wonder if even offered, would the navy want such a ship and this point? It seems to do a little of everything and excel at nothing.

 

[FM07]

Sorry if I am out of the loop on this guys, but when the JSS are delivered, are we going to still use the MV Asterix?