ANA to get C7s? from the Globe and Mail 13 Aug 2007

[Ex-Dragoon]

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/LAC/20070813/AFGHANGUNS13/International/international/international/5/5/12/

Afghan army awaiting new rifles from Canada



By ALEX DOBROTA  Monday, August 13, 2007 – Page A9 KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN -- Equipped with antiquated Soviet-era weaponry, the Afghan National Army is still waiting for a shipment of modern rifles promised by Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, a high-ranking Afghan official said.Lieutenant-Colonel Sherinshaw Kohbandi, the commander of Kandahar Province's 2nd Battalion, said Mr. O'Connor pledged to equip the ANA with the C-7 assault rifles used by Canadian soldiers."His recommendation was that within the next few months he'll supply us with brand new equipment from Canadian Forces," Lt.-Col. Kohbandi said on the weekend, adding he met the minister during one of his recent trips to Kandahar. "So I'm hoping and waiting for that day that will come for us."A spokeswoman for Mr. O'Connor said Canada is looking at various ways to help the Afghan army, and delivering C-7s is an option.Lt.-Col. Kohbandi made his comments after a transition ceremony at Kandahar Base, where Lieutenant-Colonel Rob Walker handed over the command of the Canadian Battle Group in Afghanistan to Lieutenant-Colonel Alain Gauthier, of the Quebec-based Royal 22nd Regiment, known as the Vandoos.The Vandoos are currently beginning a six-month rotation, replacing troops from the Royal Canadian Regiment and Princess Patricia's Light Infantry. Commanding officers with the Vandoos have repeatedly said their main focus will be training Afghan security forces to prepare them to face the Taliban on their own.The Afghan National Army has fewer than 500 soldiers, about one battalion, ready for combat in Kandahar Province. The Canadians plan to train more than 1,000 Afghan soldiers over the next few months.Besides their thin ranks, the Afghan army also lacks modern equipment. Its soldiers often drive into battle on board pickup trucks and wielding AK-47s, also known as Kalashnikovs.The AKs fire a 7.62-mm round, which loses accuracy at long ranges. In comparison, the Canadian C-7 rifle, a variant of the U.S. M-16, fires the NATO-standard 5.56-mm round, which travels faster than a 7.62 mm bullet. The C-7 is also more accurate than the Kalashnikov.Lt.-Col. Kohbandi said he hopes the shipment of C-7s will arrive within the next few months to allow his soldiers and officers to be trained on the new equipment before they join the Vandoos in combat operations."We'll be trained and educated for that for the next operations, so we're looking forward to that," he said through a translator.Lt.-Col. Gauthier told reporters he expects the ANA to control the area in and around Kandahar City within the next six months. This should enable Canadian forces to devote more resources to outlying regions in Kandahar Province, he said.

 

[MediTech]

I sure hope they include a large shipment of cleaning product with the C7s.  I wonder if they'll be sending the C7s with Elcan C79 sights or just iron sights?

 

[3rd Herd]

I saw this a few days ago Ex, read it, got to the AK 7.62 vs NATO 5.56 comparison and would let some else have the honor.

"....fire a 7.62-mm round, which loses accuracy at long ranges. In comparison, the Canadian C-7 rifle, a variant of the U.S. M-16, fires the NATO-standard 5.56-mm round, which travels faster than a 7.62 mm bullet. The C-7 is also more accurate than the Kalashnikov........."

I figure there are few who will wade in on this.

 

[MediTech]

I saw this a few days ago Ex, read it, got to the AK 7.62 vs NATO 5.56 comparison and would let some else have the honor.

"....fire a 7.62-mm round, which loses accuracy at long ranges. In comparison, the Canadian C-7 rifle, a variant of the U.S. M-16, fires the NATO-standard 5.56-mm round, which travels faster than a 7.62 mm bullet. The C-7 is also more accurate than the Kalashnikov........."

I figure there are few who will wade in on this.

Does anybody know the average range at which most engagements in Afghanistan occur?  If under 300 yards would the difference in accuracy be negligible?  I think some other issue to address would be ease of operation of the AK47 v. C7.  Does anybody know how well the ANA treats their equipment?  If the C7 wasn't cleaned regularly it wouldn't be all that useful in the hands of an ANA trooper.  There would be many jams and the C79 sight's range knobby thingy would get jammed up with dirt and become innoperable assuming that the c79 sight was shipped with the weapon.  Also, would be it easier and cheaper for the ANA to acquire 7.62 rounds or 5.56 rounds?  I guess somebody smarter than me has already addressed these issues but it's something to think about.  As far as the 5.56 being better or worse than the 7.62 I'd have to go with the 5.56 based on what I've read about penetrating power at long distances (800m) and the 7.62 for close ranges due to its stopping power at shorter distances.  But that doesn't really matter here because we're comparing what weapons are chambering the rounds.  I'd say the 7.62mm FN-SCAR-H would be better than a C7 but an AK47 wouldn't be better than a C7 but then again it depends on who is using and maitaining the weapon.

 

[aesop081]

  There would be many jams and the C79 sight's range knobby thingy would get jammed up with dirt

That part right there says alot about the volume of experience you have  :

 

[Martino]

This doesn't seem like a very good idea in my opinion. Two different calibers for the ANA could create supply problems, and I can't see the Afghans taking to the C7 too well after getting used to using and being around AK's their entire lives. Not that they couldn't get used to a new assault rifle, but I'd think something like the AK-74 would make more sense.

 

[George Wallace]

Does anybody know the average range at which most engagements in Afghanistan occur?  If under 300 yards would the difference in accuracy be negligible?  I think some other issue to address would be ease of operation of the AK47 v. C7.  Does anybody know how well the ANA treats their equipment?  If the C7 wasn't cleaned regularly it wouldn't be all that useful in the hands of an ANA trooper.  There would be many jams and the C79 sight's range knobby thingy would get jammed up with dirt and become innoperable assuming that the c79 sight was shipped with the weapon.  Also, would be it easier and cheaper for the ANA to acquire 7.62 rounds or 5.56 rounds?  I guess somebody smarter than me has already addressed these issues but it's something to think about.  As far as the 5.56 being better or worse than the 7.62 I'd have to go with the 5.56 based on what I've read about penetrating power at long distances (800m) and the 7.62 for close ranges due to its stopping power at shorter distances.  But that doesn't really matter here because we're comparing what weapons are chambering the rounds.  I'd say the 7.62mm FN-SCAR-H would be better than a C7 but an AK47 wouldn't be better than a C7 but then again it depends on who is using and maitaining the weapon.

Ya really made a mess of that one.

 

[Pte AJB]

y
Two different calibers for the ANA could create supply problems

If anything, I would presume that the switch to NATO standard 5.56 would aid interoperability and alleviate some of the difficulties in acquiring 7.62x39 ammo from non-NATO stocks.

 

[McG]

Are there difficulties?

 

[aesop081]

alleviate some of the difficulties in acquiring 7.62x39 ammo from non-NATO stocks.

Its probably the most widely distributed ammo in the world, how difficult can it be ?

 

[Pte AJB]

Are there difficulties?

Out of my lane here.  It would seem to me that acquiring NATO standard ammo would be easier for the ANA given the ISAF mission in country.  Providing them with access to a steady stream of ammo without having to go outside the NATO system.

In hindsight, the world 'difficulties' may have been too strong a word, but I suppose that it would be easier to acquire stocks from within the NATO system than from outside it. Though I am speaking solely on speculation and am welcome to any correction.  

edited to include post from CDN Aviator:

Its probably the most widely distributed ammo in the world, how difficult can it be ?

Not much, but is there benefit from acquring stocks from within NATO rather than outside it?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Not to change the subject too much but are there still a lot of SMLE .303s still in use?

 

[KevinB]

Any wide spot on the road has 7.62x39

However switching to 5.56mm does make it hard for units to sell off their ammo to Warlords etc.
Secondly Diemaco (now Colt Canada) products, while made in Canada, are subject to US Department of State ITAR requirements due to the Colt license.  Minister O'Connor can talk till he is blue in the face - but unless Condi gives her John Hankok on the paper all he is doing is wasting oxygen.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There's lots of both on the market. Everyone is producing it. Was at a show this weekend, looking at crates and battlepaks of 5.56 produced by the Serbs, Checks, Hungarians, Russians, etc. All surplus and all for sale cheap.

 

[Pte AJB]

Thanks all. I stand corrected, humbled and enlightened.

 

[MediTech]

That part right there says alot about the volume of experience you have  :

I was trying to refer to the horizontal thumbwheel used for elevation adjustments but I couldn't nor can I still think of the proper name.  Can somebody help me out? 

 

[geo]

Uhh... while we are on record as saying we will equip the ANA with the C7, does it say anywhere that we will be providing C7A2 or C7A1?  The C7 with a straight iron sight, as used on the M16 could be just what the Dr prescribed.

 

[medaid]

One would hope that they'd be A1s. I think as the A1s are slowly being phased out, they would be of some use to our allies.


Med.Tech.... I see you're back....

 

[geo]

Med. Tech...
A1s have the Elcan sights, that need a relatively solid maintenance plan to keep em going... Iron sights don't need special maintenance.  Considering the US Military still embraces Iron sights on their M16s, the ANA shouldn't feel upset.

 

[1feral1]

I would imagine they'll equip them with original C7's of which I am sure there is many in storage, and with all the logistical and maintenance hoopla on the ELCAN, supplying them to 'monkeys' (poorly trained and educated) would not be the best idea. There is no infrastructrure/training for maintenance at any level by the ANA worth mentioning, unless Colt Canada is sniffing out a ongoing parts and maintenance programme for both the EOS and the weapon. Maybe IVI is in on the ammo bandwagon too? Some Canuckistan war profiteering perhaps??  ;D ha!

Personally the ANA should be equipped with AKs, it makes sense, its the regional weapon of choice, robust and monkey-proof, the ammo will be around long long after our Forces are out of the area.

As for MEDTECH's babbling about stoppages and problems with the C7 FOW, he's been watching too many Viet Nam war movies et all, and listening to the M16 urban myths. Stay in your lane mate and stick to your level of small arms knowledge and trade, as you just make an arse out of yourself.

I would not consider the ANA our Allies, just on our side for the moment.

I have full confidence on the M16 FOW in any climate, and thats info not from a magazine, thats from personal experience.


Cheers,

Wes