Alternate for the CIC

[elscotto937]

The question that should be asked: Should the CIC be commissioned CF Officers, why or Why not? Many people have been talking about the deficiencies in training the CIC and that they deal with children for the most part. If you suggest that they should not be commissioned officers, or even NCMs, what would thier alternate be?

 

[Excolis]

CIC officers should have a higher sandard of training.... but there are some who should have remained civilians for sure....i believe that they should be commisioned officers... most of them used to be reg force/pres... there are a few that teach at RMC as well...

 

[Gibson]

I agree they should be commissioned officers, but they need to raise the standards and requirements for them. I‘ve seen some people in the CIC who simply do not shed a favourable light on the CF. Those who do would have no trouble with a raise in standards. So it‘s win/win

 

[elscotto937]

I agree that they most continue to raise the standard of training if they are to retain that status as CF members. But could the CIC actually maintain a qualification level, let alone attain it?

 

[MikeM]

I beleive they do deserve a CF commission, however, like the rest of you, I agree that there must be a higher standard for them. The current standard is unacceptable.

Aswell, the physical shape of some Ocdts and Junior officers I have seen is substantially substandard, mind you the majority aren‘t but there are some people that make it in with a very poor health and fitness.

 

[elscotto937]

What is the standard for commissioning... couple of weekends and that‘s it? It used to be but i hoped that we had gotten beyond that

 

[Spartan]

but you also have to understand that the CIC recruits from a limited base as is, and the average paper quote is approx 4.7 yrs.

while upping stds would be beneficial, it should also be addressed in terms of what cadets is morphing into- more and more technical / hands on trg is evaporating simply because all the elements are losing people with the technical knowledge. the programs are being changed so that they can simply be taught out of a book, by anyone, in order to help alleviate some of these problems.

 

[primer]

The standards need to be changed. But it has to start from the top. Most CIC officers dont do it for the money. Do I think there should be CIC SR NCMs yes. But it should be limited to members on the SHR with there experiance. The level of instruction at RCIS C is up to standerd but it needs to be changed ( the old boys club) they need new peaple and a change will happen,This looks like a thread thats going to blow up like the one before. have fun with it I am just going to watch...

 

[Franko]

Well Primer...if there are changes to be made in the system, you are in a position to do so. If the "old boys club" doesn‘t listen, then go higher with your ideas. You may be blacklisted as a ‘maverick‘ in the CIC, but who cares about that. We are talking about rasing the standards for the benifit of the troops. Use the chain to your and the cadets advantage.

As for the point of physical fitness on the part of CIC officers, I couldn‘t agree more. They are setting an example to the cadets, why shouldn‘t they be in good shape? I know lots of outstanding officer who are...I‘ll be gentle here...less than the ideal picture of fitness. But in the cadets eyes all they see is someone who can‘t keep up on runs, or ruck marches(or doesn‘t participate at all). I know of only one officer who used to ruck with the troops in cadets. He would wait for the last troop to leave, finish his coffee, throw on his ruck, and go with the RSM. They would pass EVERY troop encouraging them on. They would get into the biv site first and shake the hand of every cadet who made it. These marches weren‘t long either, 7-10k at most. He has seen the light and gone reg force now. But the point I‘m making here is we should have more people like him in the CIC.

As a note, I ruck with the corps everytime we deploy, full bug out kit and webbing(now TV). Normally I try to get a race going in between the troops for a bit of fun, we all know how boring these marches are. I am trying to get the officers to do it as well but we all know how that goes....

Regards

 

[Excolis]

pt. pt. pt... they need it in the cic.......i cant believe it is no longer in our training... at all. they cut it out completely... ahhhh...
it is all lazy that is it...

 

[Jason Jarvis]

I was doing a bit of research last night on how officers and instructors are handled in both the Army Cadet Force (great site, BTW) and Australian Army Cadets. It‘s incomplete, so don‘t slag me for misinformation.

From what I‘ve been able to gather, AFC officers are given a TA Class "B" commission, but there‘s nothing saying they have to become officers -- they can join as a "Sgt Instructor" but then opt for a commission down the road.

In the AAC, there are two types: "Officer of Cadets" (OOC) and "Instructor of Cadets" (IOC). From info on a page I can‘t seem to locate right now, I don‘t think OOCs hold a Queen‘s Commission like either AFC or CIC officers. I find this a little puzzling, considering other similarities in military tradition between the three countries.

As for training, I‘ve found remarkably little on the AFC side, although the AAC site lists a slew of courses for OOC/IOCs -- none of which are overly martial, except for a radio and history course. No fieldcraft, small unit tactics, etc.

Instead of just griping about the way things are done now, let‘s look to what other countries have done, and are doing. If anybody knows anything more about either the AFC or AAC, say so, and provide links so we can judge for ourselves. Then let‘s have an informed discussion to see what we can come up with.

Jason

 

[AirCon]

ok, let me see if I have this right....?

I spent 6 years in the Cadet movement - 3 years Navy League Cadets (Petty Officer 1st Class) - 3 years Royal Canadian Sea Cadets (Petty Officer 2nd Class) - 5 years Army Reserves (2 years Infantry Regiment, 3 years Service Battalion MCpl) - 4 years in a volunteer organization that "saves lives" (Unit President and Unit Director) - presently current job has me in charge of a multi-million dollar "camp" that uses what‘s called the "Incident Command System" (a mirror of the CF Command System)and has me dealing with everything from Human Relations with crews, mess halls, flight operations, administration etc. - have a keen interest in all things military........

are you saying I shouldn‘t be able/or allowed to wear the Uniform of the Queen‘s Canadian Armed Forces because I can‘t "hump a ruck" or do a 10K run?....Hmmmmmm...I really thought I‘d like to become a member of the Cadre in some way. I guess not?....

BTW...13 years ago I lost my right leg to medical problems, so the your above comments about "ruckin‘ and runnin" kinda count me out?

BTW again...in case your wondering...no offense taken. Please be careful. There are LOT‘s of people out there who would make excellent additions to Her Majesty‘s CIC. You‘d be surprised how many people read these forums (and MIGHT of had an interest in becoming a member of the CIC!)

Cheers

Wayne

 

[primer]

Originally posted by Franko:
[qb] Well Primer...if there are changes to be made in the system, you are in a position to do so. If the "old boys club" doesn‘t listen, then go higher with your ideas. You may be blacklisted as a ‘maverick‘ in the CIC, but who cares about that. We are talking about rasing the standards for the benifit of the troops. Use the chain to your and the cadets advantage.

As for the point of physical fitness on the part of CIC officers, I couldn‘t agree more. They are setting an example to the cadets, why shouldn‘t they be in good shape? I know lots of outstanding officer who are...I‘ll be gentle here...less than the ideal picture of fitness. But in the cadets eyes all they see is someone who can‘t keep up on runs, or ruck marches(or doesn‘t participate at all). I know of only one officer who used to ruck with the troops in cadets. He would wait for the last troop to leave, finish his coffee, throw on his ruck, and go with the RSM. They would pass EVERY troop encouraging them on. They would get into the biv site first and shake the hand of every cadet who made it. These marches weren‘t long either, 7-10k at most. He has seen the light and gone reg force now. But the point I‘m making here is we should have more people like him in the CIC.

As a note, I ruck with the corps everytime we deploy, full bug out kit and webbing(now TV). Normally I try to get a race going in between the troops for a bit of fun, we all know how boring these marches are. I am trying to get the officers to do it as well but we all know how that goes....

Regards [/qb]

I do agree with you about going higher on the old boys club and have. I have been BLACKED BALLED and they do want me.WE as CIC officers filed out a questionair last year on what needs to be changed IN the CIC, Its should be out very soon,well they say it is you know how things work.Till that comes out officialy then we know what needs to be changed.And I cant wait till its out.Do you know what I am Talking about ???

 

[Franko]

I know the one your talking about. It‘ll get buried, just like the other ones. Worse comes to worse I‘LL go higher. I have LOTS of contacts at NDHQ that can do some good.

I love useing back channels, get more done that way.

:evil:

 

[elscotto937]

AirCon,
You do not have to be a CIC to take a very active role in the the Cadet movement, civilian instructors are a huge asset to any corps. This is the location for those who want to commit some time and work with cadets, but cannot or do not want to take on the responsibilties of putting on a uniform. But it is a responsibility that cannot be taken lightly. Those who have the commission, are officers, and no where in thier commission does it have a caveat, that stats "only for Cadets," if there were, this discussion would be null and void. And I do agree that there are many out there would make excellent role models for cadets but not in a uniform.
I think what everybody is talking about using training and Physical condition as criteria, is credibility. How do we stop the CIC from being the joke of the CF, cause lets face it, currently they are. They do provide a valuable service and no one can doubt that thier job is difficult one, although very different from that of the military.

 

[chalk1]

Raise standards.

 

[Franko]

Pertaining to what McBear? Generally the standards have gone up somewhat over the years. The problem lies with maintaining a standard. If COs and higher officers don‘t ensure the standard(for whatever issue this pertains to) isn‘t met on a regulated basis, what should they do?

Personally I think if a CIC officer doesn‘t maintain the standard for dress and deportment, administration, and current guidlines, they should immediatly be counseled, and put on a probationary period. If they fail during this period...C&P. Follow that by another period and assesment, still no good...charge or discharge. Cut and dry.

But I‘m sure that we are aware that it won‘t ever come to this because right now the CIC cadre is hurting for officers, if they squeeze newcomers too hard they quit.

I‘ve seen one officer that should have been punted a long time ago. Overweight, doesn‘t adhere to dress regs(won‘t divuldge too much)etc.
He thinks he has the world by the tail right now, wait until I get back from this hole. :evil:

Regards

 

[AirCon]

Hi Scott

Excellent points you bring forth...

I have thought about the CI route but deep down I think my calling would still lean towards the CIC. I joined cadets waaaaaaay before a lot of the Forum Troops here were even born (1967) and continued my interest in "all things military" to the present. No, that doesn‘t put me in the the "Old Boys Club" because I believe in the welfare of the Troops FIRST (cadets, fellow officers and my "civvie-side Troops"). I still believe in "yes Sir - no Sir" and "yes Ma‘am - no Ma‘am" articulation and trust me, you can "shave" from the shine on my boots and "cut yourself" on the proper creases of my uniform.

It seems from what I‘m hearing there is a problem with certain members of the CIC. I don‘t even know if they accept individuals who have the same situation as I do? I‘d love to offer the experiences and knowledge that I have but in a way that the Cadets (Land, Sea or Air) can best relate to - as a member of the CIC.

Time to do a little research!

Cheers

Wayne

 

[Franko]

Air Con...apply! No harm in trying

Regards

 

[elscotto937]

Wayne, they used to write a waiver for those who did not meet the medical standards but would still be effective. This was for exceptional situations, and I believe that you would be well served attempting to join the CIC, possibly a waiver could be obtained (I don‘t know if the exist, since recruting centers now control things)Sounds like you would be an excellent asset to the program..
Scott