Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Furniture]

If I wanted to keep working in the CAF yup.

But instead of fiddling with base pays, make an allowance. Like SDA or LDA.

The last thing the CAF needs is another way to get promoted/posted and make less money. Imagine going from Halifax to Ottawa, losing PLD, SDA, and "responsibility allowance". We can't keep people already, making them take a massive hit to QOL because we need them to do a different job is just going to make things worse.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Most of the “there are no civilian equivalent” aka “hard military trades” are operator trades. The folks who go out and conduct operations, domestically and internationally.

Why should they make less money at the same rank (roughly) than anyone else?

Thinking infantry, armour, flying NCMs, NES Ops.

We are starting to undervalue the skills these trades bring to the table “because college x/university Y” don’t have post-secondary education programs. Education should not automatically qualify Mil trades for more pay.

My understanding is Flying NCMs make excellent $$$ and NESOPs get spec pay.

Hard Army trades may have a bone to pick though.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The last thing the CAF needs is another way to get promoted/posted and make less money. Imagine going from Halifax to Ottawa, losing PLD, SDA, and "responsibility allowance". We can't keep people already, making them take a massive hit to QOL because we need them to do a different job is just going to make things worse.

That's a fair point.

Perhaps the issue has gotten to big at this point. Factor in housing, inflation, pay rates and allowances...

What can we do ?

 

[Furniture]

That's a fair point.

Perhaps the issue has gotten to big at this point. Factor in housing, inflation, pay rates and allowances...

What can we do ?

Delay updating PLD indefinitely and hope the issues go away...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Delay updating PLD indefinitely and hope the issues go away...

Sounds like a perfectly acceptable COA. You, my good man, just go your leading change bubble right justified

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My understanding is Flying NCMs make excellent $$$ and NESOPs get spec pay.

SAR Techs are very well paid now. Flight Engineer is Spec 2 (they earn it), AES Op is Spec 1. There is varying opinions on AES Op levels of compensation; I can see an argument for Spec 2 for certain appointments/positions as that have fairly high levels of knowledge, skills and responsibilities. My trade has significant technical and tactical knowledge expectations and demands that have no real civilian comparison but the RCAF sure needs and expects them.

Aircrew allowance is a benefit that looks way better than it is.

I’m Lvl 3 AIRCRA; $459/month, $5508/year. After taxes (I’ll use 48% taxes), that’s $2864/year.

I’m required to fly a minimum of 100 hours/year. That would equal $28.64/hr extra pay while flying, maximum.

The amount of time and effort needed to maintain a Category and currencies is significant. Quarterly, semi-annual and annual ones. Flying and simulator minimum time requirements. Annual medical stuff. It’s a pretty big list of extra stuff for what in reality is not a whole lot of extra money each pay run.

My highest flying year was just around 780 hours (that’s a lot of flying these days). I was making Lvl 2 AIRCRA that year.

Using the same math as above, that would have equaled about $3.17/hour extra.

AIRCRA…looks much better than it is.

Hard Army trades may have a bone to pick though.

Yup. I think we undervalue the skills of our “war fighters”. I’ve seen more than one person in the combat arms with a degree who was an absolute clusterfuck in the field, NCM and Officer. I taught a TQ3 course once that had a double-degree Trooper on it. He figures out hospital corners sometime around Week 5.

 

[Grimey]

The other side of that is MARTECH provided the person is actually trained and competent should have the capability to work 4 different civilian trades and easily make over 100k a year civvy side.

It‘s not that easy nowadays. Ten plus years ago, there would have been a direct trade equivalency. As a Mar Eng Tech in ‘95, I handed my fee over and wrote the millwright exam. As a post tour CPO2 in 2011, I handed over my fee to the BC Boiler Safety Branch and el-presto, I was a 2nd Class Power engineer. I’ve leveraged both to get where I currently am…$140K a year.

Since then, Technical Services BC has finally wizened up to the fact that today‘s MARTECHs aren’t running high pressure steam plants. Today’s CPO2 would have to write for a 4th class ticket. Legacy Mar El’s would have been credit towards a red seal electrical ticket. Hull Techs got nothing, at least in BC.

It would seem that the ITA isn’t aware that Mar Eng Techs etc no longer exist.

SkilledTradesBC

SkilledTradesBC leads BC’s skilled trades system. SkilledTradesBC manages credentials, apprenticeships, and standards, and promotes trades opportunities.

skilledtradesbc.ca

 

[dapaterson]

It would seem that the ITA isn’t aware that Mar Eng Techs etc no longer exist.

SkilledTradesBC

SkilledTradesBC leads BC’s skilled trades system. SkilledTradesBC manages credentials, apprenticeships, and standards, and promotes trades opportunities.

skilledtradesbc.ca

They still have to track legacy qualifications from the CAF; folks of your generation may show up looking for recognition of their training and experience.

 

[Halifax Tar]

SAR Techs are very well paid now. Flight Engineer is Spec 2 (they earn it), AES Op is Spec 1. There is varying opinions on AES Op levels of compensation; I can see an argument for Spec 2 for certain appointments/positions as that have fairly high levels of knowledge, skills and responsibilities. My trade has significant technical and tactical knowledge expectations and demands that have no real civilian comparison but the RCAF sure needs and expects them.

Aircrew allowance is a benefit that looks way better than it is.

I’m Lvl 3 AIRCRA; $459/month, $5508/year. After taxes (I’ll use 48% taxes), that’s $2864/year.

I’m required to fly a minimum of 100 hours/year. That would equal $28.64/hr extra pay while flying, maximum.

The amount of time and effort needed to maintain a Category and currencies is significant. Quarterly, semi-annual and annual ones. Flying and simulator minimum time requirements. Annual medical stuff. It’s a pretty big list of extra stuff for what in reality is not a whole lot of extra money each pay run.

My highest flying year was just around 780 hours (that’s a lot of flying these days). I was making Lvl 2 AIRCRA that year.

Using the same math as above, that would have equaled about $3.17/hour extra.

AIRCRA…looks much better than it is.

Hard Army trades may have a bone to pick though.

Yup. I think we undervalue the skills of our “war fighters”. I’ve seen more than one person in the combat arms with a degree who was an absolute clusterfuck in the field, NCM and Officer. I taught a TQ3 course once that had a double-degree Trooper on it. He figures out hospital corners sometime around Week 5.

That's defiantly a different shade than was painted to me by the member of your trade who was on my SLT last year. He was very expressive that you guys were paid handsomely. And insulted when I thought CLDs were the highest paid NCMs.

Want to re-muster to MMT and go to sea ? Much worse living conditions, just as much on going trg, and treated like second class citizens. All that for your SDA rate a month extra. And your hours that year would only amount to 32(ish) days at sea.

Add in to that SAP skill is in high demand and its no wonder we are simply bleeding people. About the worst thing we can do as a trade now is post someone to Ottawa. It seems like everyone who goes there leaves ASAP for a civi job.

Not trying to be a dick, just give some perspective.

Army - I agree. I think the days of the dumb grunt are over to an extent and perhaps their pay rates should be reexamined.

 

[Grimey]

They still have to track legacy qualifications from the CAF; folks of your generation may show up looking for recognition of their training and experience.

Perhaps, although with the attrition rate over the last ten years, I’d imagine that anybody with the quals has already done so.

 

[dimsum]

That's a fair point.

Perhaps the issue has gotten to big at this point. Factor in housing, inflation, pay rates and allowances...

What can we do ?

Wait until the actual pay change drops and see what shakes out, rather than blindly guessing on what the compensation will be?

I'm not singling you out, but let's be honest, no one has had any real answers (and the ones that do aren't talking), so this thread (and the Reddit ones) is pretty much baseless RUMINT until there's an actual announcement with numbers attached.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Add in to that SAP skill is in high demand and its no wonder we are simply bleeding people. About the worst thing we can do as a trade now is post someone to Ottawa. It seems like everyone who goes there leaves ASAP for a civi job.

For some context to that; we can't keep civi procurement folks in DND on the in service side. There is more than enough work there if you actually filled all the billets and doubled the staff to keep them busy. It's pretty easy for them to move within the department to big projects or go to another department and do the same job, but with normal demands and without the stress, so no brainer.

Because of the HR process, the easiest way to get someone new in is to poach them from DND (as a priority hire) so for anyone looking for stability, and usually a pay raise on your base salary, and things like OT, it's a great option to switch to the PS.

Wrt previous comments, knowing how inflated PERs can get, imagine my surprise at hearing they were down to basically the 'did their job' files, which usually means someone did just enough without getting charged for something. I'm sure some of them are checked out/burnt out from the job, while others just aren't that good to start, so not really someone you want promoted to more responsibility, and nothing like a checked out supervisor to kill aspirations for top performers.

I don't think pay increases alone will stop the death spiral, and at least on the Navy side, I can't really think of anything at this point other than drastically scaling down the number of ships in operation, crewing them properly. If we expect people to do the divisional work properly, we can't give them more work than they can do regardless of how much they work as the status quo. We seem to be running the organizations in a constant 'war footing surge' just to get the basics done, so no idea how we'd actually surge for real.

 

[ballz]

I've become pretty good friends with the last two and current US officer that is employed in 1 CMBG HQ. The US is a pretty vast geographic area with lots of variety in cost of living between the regions. They do get some kind of housing allowance that varies by region (not to mention international bases) and it's administered slightly different, can't recall exactly but anyway... from talking to them they seem to have this part of their compensation model sorted out enough that it doesn't result in vast inequities.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That's defiantly a different shade than was painted to me by the member of your trade who was on my SLT last year. He was very expressive that you guys were paid handsomely. And insulted when I thought CLDs were the highest paid NCMs.

We all have a different perspectives. The real money is deployments, which he and I got our fair share of…but the AIRCRA itself is small potatoes.

SAR Techs are by far the best paid NCMs for the last year or so.

Want to re-muster to MMT and go to sea ? Much worse living conditions, just as much on going trg, and treated like second class citizens. All that for your SDA rate a month extra. And your hours that year would only amount to 32(ish) days at sea.

No thanks?

My point in AIRCRA applies to LDA and SDA, I’m just not sure what compares in the army or Navy to aircrew “maintaining a category”.

Add in to that SAP skill is in high demand and its no wonder we are simply bleeding people. About the worst thing we can do as a trade now is post someone to Ottawa. It seems like everyone who goes there leaves ASAP for a civi job.

The worst thing I could imagine is a posting to Ottawa. Lol

Not trying to be a dick, just give some perspective.

No worries at all and never thought that for a second. We all have different views of the CAF.

Aircrew isn’t a bad go, just our environmental allowance isn’t all that great. Make it part of my salary and boost my pension and I’d have no complaints then.

Army - I agree. I think the days of the dumb grunt are over to an extent and perhaps their pay rates should be reexamined.

Yup. Anyone who thinks it’s easy work should join a platoon/troop, etc for a year.

 

[dapaterson]

I've become pretty good friends with the last two and current US officer that is employed in 1 CMBG HQ. The US is a pretty vast geographic area with lots of variety in cost of living between the regions. They do get some kind of housing allowance that varies by region (not to mention international bases) and it's administered slightly different, can't recall exactly but anyway... from talking to them they seem to have this part of their compensation model sorted out enough that it doesn't result in vast inequities.

There's a strong O vs E difference in their housing support - weighted towards those more senior.

 

[brihard]

There's a strong O vs E difference in their housing support - weighted towards those more senior.

No kidding. Many of their enlisted live in barracks that could generously be described as ‘squalor’ or ‘decrepit’.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Wait until the actual pay change drops and see what shakes out, rather than blindly guessing on what the compensation will be?

I'm not singling you out, but let's be honest, no one has had any real answers (and the ones that do aren't talking), so this thread (and the Reddit ones) is pretty much baseless RUMINT until there's an actual announcement with numbers attached.

I would say we are just spit balling ideas. No different than sitting around in a pub talking smack. It is a discussion forum after all.

I have to imagine something was set to come out and it was sucked back for some reason.

For some context to that; we can't keep civi procurement folks in DND on the in service side. There is more than enough work there if you actually filled all the billets and doubled the staff to keep them busy. It's pretty easy for them to move within the department to big projects or go to another department and do the same job, but with normal demands and without the stress, so no brainer.

Because of the HR process, the easiest way to get someone new in is to poach them from DND (as a priority hire) so for anyone looking for stability, and usually a pay raise on your base salary, and things like OT, it's a great option to switch to the PS.

I get it. And I don't blame someone for jumping ship.

Wrt previous comments, knowing how inflated PERs can get, imagine my surprise at hearing they were down to basically the 'did their job' files, which usually means someone did just enough without getting charged for something. I'm sure some of them are checked out/burnt out from the job, while others just aren't that good to start, so not really someone you want promoted to more responsibility, and nothing like a checked out supervisor to kill aspirations for top performers.

We're in a vicious cycle.

I don't think pay increases alone will stop the death spiral, and at least on the Navy side, I can't really think of anything at this point other than drastically scaling down the number of ships in operation, crewing them properly. If we expect people to do the divisional work properly, we can't give them more work than they can do regardless of how much they work as the status quo. We seem to be running the organizations in a constant 'war footing surge' just to get the basics done, so no idea how we'd actually surge for real.

Perhaps both are needed at the moment.

 

[Rifleman62]

Eye In The Sky: Aircrew isn’t a bad go, just our environmental allowance isn’t all that great. Make it part of my salary and boost my pension and I’d have no complaints then.​

Can't find the actual article, but what was recommended did indeed happen. Adding the tax-free allowances to salary, plus factor in the increase to personal income tax and voilà a great increase in pensionable earnings.

taxhttps://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/pm-in-line-for-42-raise/article25440651/

PM in line for 42% raise -MAY 30, 2001​

The three-member commission, headed by Ed Lumley -- who was a minister in the last Trudeau cabinet -- recommended substantial increases to "attract, motivate and retain" quality people in politics. MPs currently earn $69,100, plus a tax-free allowance of $22,800. That equates to a pretax income of $109,500. Mr. Lumley urged the government to abolish the tax-free allowance and increase the salary to $131,400, an effective increase of 20 per cent. Senators would see their salaries rise to $105,840 from $88,200

 

[dimsum]

Can't find the actual article, but what was recommended did indeed happen. Adding the tax-free allowances to salary, plus factor in the increase to personal income tax and voilà a great increase in pensionable earnings.

taxhttps://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/pm-in-line-for-42-raise/article25440651/

PM in line for 42% raise -MAY 30, 2001​

The three-member commission, headed by Ed Lumley -- who was a minister in the last Trudeau cabinet -- recommended substantial increases to "attract, motivate and retain" quality people in politics. MPs currently earn $69,100, plus a tax-free allowance of $22,800. That equates to a pretax income of $109,500. Mr. Lumley urged the government to abolish the tax-free allowance and increase the salary to $131,400, an effective increase of 20 per cent. Senators would see their salaries rise to $105,840 from $88,200

Of course that happens with politicians.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Of course that happens with politicians.

No issue here. Well earned. Things are great! Cake an circuses!