Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[captloadie]

The biggest statutory risk would probably be repeal of the CFSA article restricting contribution rates to those of the PS. Were CAF members to pay half of the actuarial cost of their pensions, part I rates would likely increase by over 25%.

Many other elements of compensation are either regulatory or policy based.

You mean for the CAF now correct, not for the PS? I could see that if the union issue was pushed, Gov't would repeal almost all the protections we currently have, and say that we can negotiate for them just like the PS.

 

[mariomike]

For reference to the discussion,

"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

Only a liberal or Ndp supporter would suggest to unionize the Military. That would be one of the worse things the Military could do. Members already complain about paying mess dues, could you imagine of they had to pay another $40 a pay check to Union Dues. As for them moving things forward, I...

army.ca

18 pages.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One of my concerns with a Unionized organization is would we then start to lose some of our benefits/allowances/etc. that are currently protected by statute? While I think it has reversed a bit in the last decade, there was a period of time where the public service traded away many of their benefits in exchange for higher wages. I like the fact that my pension, my leave, my access to medical/dental, tax free tours, and things I'm entitled to on transition and post career are currently protected. And yes, they could be changed on a whim of government, but they can't be negotiated away by senior members to benefit themselves at the expense of junior and future CAF members.

Very valid points.

My next question would be who does the union represent ? All members ? Just the JRs ? Just the NCMs ? Does a member at one point transition out of the union and into management at a promotion level ?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You mean for the CAF now correct, not for the PS? I could see that if the union issue was pushed, Gov't would repeal almost all the protections we currently have, and say that we can negotiate for them just like the PS.

I seriously doubt it. I work in an industry that's heavily regulated by the Govt. The Union negotiates more favorable conditions than the Govt dictates to the Companies.

Very valid points.

My next question would be who does the union represent ? All members ? Just the JRs ? Just the NCMs ? Does a member at one point transition out of the union and into management at a promotion level ?

IMO, if you have a Commission, you aren't in the Union. It's just for Non-Commissioned Members.

I can tell you right now that Managers pay and benefits would also go up. My current employer had to pay me more money simply to get me to leave the Union.

 

[Remius]

While we tend to get pay bumps after the PS they are in no way bargaining for the CAF or representing us in labour relations.

Of course not. But you benefit from what they benefit and they generally fight hard to get as much as they can. But again, how much more value would a CAF union get that they aren’t getting now for free?

I’m not shooting down the idea of a union but how much more would you get for 500$ to 900$ a year that you don’t get now? How many things could you potentially lose or have to negociate for that the PS does already?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Of course not. But you benefit from what they benefit and they generally fight hard to get as much as they can. But again, how much more value would a CAF union get that they aren’t getting now for free?

I’m not shooting down the idea of a union but how much more would you get for 500$ to 900$ a year that you don’t get now? How many things could you potentially lose or have to negociate for that the PS does already?

The beautiful thing about being a Monopoly is you can set the price of services

 

[ueo]

This would make it easier to move people, if housing is widely available. And mil housing needs to be at a significantly reduced rate or people would just buy on the economy. Make it worthwhile to live in the PMQs.

What PMQs?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Of course not. But you benefit from what they benefit and they generally fight hard to get as much as they can. But again, how much more value would a CAF union get that they aren’t getting now for free?

I’m not shooting down the idea of a union but how much more would you get for 500$ to 900$ a year that you don’t get now? How many things could you potentially lose or have to negociate for that the PS does already?

I said it in the post you quoted. Collective bargaining and labour relations.

I don't think an organization of labour in the CAF is a primarily monetary focused issue. I think the codified and equal labour relations and improved HR management is truly what this would be about. To put it in crayon eater terms, the troops have or are losing faith in leadership to have their wellbeing as a primary focus.

 

[captloadie]

I said it in the post you quoted. Collective bargaining and labour relations.

I don't think an organization of labour in the CAF is a primarily monetary focused issue. I think the codified and equal labour relations and improved HR management is truly what this would be about. To put it in crayon eater terms, the troops have or are losing faith in leadership to have their wellbeing as a primary focus.

The problem is, we already have all the policies and protections in place to deal with this stuff. We just don't use them as intended. And we would have to drastically change the way we do promotions and such if we think that bringing in a union will change that. At the tactical level, your union rep is just the shop steward on the floor, so another MCpl or Cpl who represents your interests. It is only once something goes above a Level 3 grievance does anyone senior get involved. I have been the Level 5 Grievance decision maker before, and adjudicated and heard complaints. The members were either represented by a coworker who was their stewart, or in one instance when no on would represent the guy, the local president. The same perceived blowback on the shop steward and the member would happen in our current system, and have more career impacts for military members than it does now for PS, because their advancement is still in the hands of their supervisors.

 

[Remius]

Pay is a huge part of Collective bargaining. Not sure how much pull the PS union has on HR management to be honest. Management still has a lot of leeway in that regard as long as rights aren’t violated.

I don’t know how a union would restore faith in leadership. Plenty of people get dismayed with a union.

 

[kratz]

I think if CAF labour did organize, then the messes should be folded up once and for all as a mandatory deduction of pay, and they should be an optional club like the Auto Hobby club.

Since the Auto and Hobby clubs were closed by CFMWS due to liability issues, the messes would be closed as well.
Check.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The problem is, we already have all the policies and protections in place to deal with this stuff. We just don't use them as intended.

You are correct, and they are not applied evenly.

And we would have to drastically change the way we do promotions and such if we think that bringing in a union will change that.

Im fine with this.

At the tactical level, your union rep is just the shop steward on the floor, so another MCpl or Cpl who represents your interests. It is only once something goes above a Level 3 grievance does anyone senior get involved. I have been the Level 5 Grievance decision maker before, and adjudicated and heard complaints. The members were either represented by a coworker who was their stewart, or in one instance when no on would represent the guy, the local president. The same perceived blowback on the shop steward and the member would happen in our current system, and have more career impacts for military members than it does now for PS, because their advancement is still in the hands of their supervisors.

I think we could look at some unionized allies and the RCMP and perhaps incorporate some best practices. Its not like we would be blazing a trail here.

Pay is a huge part of Collective bargaining. Not sure how much pull the PS union has on HR management to be honest. Management still has a lot of leeway in that regard as long as rights aren’t violated.

I don’t know how a union would restore faith in leadership. Plenty of people get dismayed with a union.

And so is your HR policies. It just doesn't get the spotlight like cash does. Think of working conditions, promotion polices, leave policies...

I'm not sure if it will either, but it will provide a layer of protection to those who need it.

 

[lenaitch]

Clearly an outsider, but I don't any conceivable CAF union/association/bargaining unit drawing a whole lot from civilian counterparts, even law enforcement. There are so many aspects that make a military what it needs to be that simply don't, or can't, exist in the civilian world. Perhaps a study of those European militaries that are 'unionized' might be more helpful.

How all-encompassing any collective agreement would be would depend on legislation. The OPP Association only gained the right to bargain pensions a handful of years ago, and has no role in operational matters such as equipment and promotions. What does happen once a collective agreement is in place is it sits at the centre of any table that labour and management sit at. Whether that is always a good thing depends on both parties; sometimes it can get in the way.

It would seem to make sense that the bargaining unit would cut-off at the commissioned level. Whether all involved members would simply be members of one great big bargaining unit, or each branch of service would be their own would remain to be seen. NYPD has multiple unions divided by rank. Whether the COs would be allowed to have their own bargaining unit would be interesting.

 

[markppcli]

What PMQs?

It’s funny this is skipped over. What PMQs and what Single Quarters has been a massive issue.

 

[Quirky]

It’s all part of the master plan.
-Demolish more PMQs than you build,
-Release allowance policy heavily favoured towards living on economy,
-Freeze postings,
-In seven years everyone loses the allowance.

Think of all the money saved!

 

[dimsum]

It’s all part of the master plan.
-Demolish more PMQs than you build,
-Release allowance policy heavily favoured towards living on economy,
-Freeze postings,
-In seven years everyone loses the allowance.

Think of all the money saved!

There's a master plan?!

 

[Navy_Pete]

And yes, they could be changed on a whim of government, but they can't be negotiated away by senior members to benefit themselves at the expense of junior and future CAF members.

Why bother doing that when they can bribe civilians in the RCL to bless massive changes to our benefits and pensions?

 

[markppcli]

It’s all part of the master plan.
-Demolish more PMQs than you build,
-Release allowance policy heavily favoured towards living on economy,
-Freeze postings,
-In seven years everyone loses the allowance.

Think of all the money saved!

Don’t forget to structure this benefit in such a way that the highest benefit will only be available to those in the training system and thus unable to claim it.

 

[Furniture]

Don’t forget to structure this benefit in such a way that the highest benefit will only be available to those in the training system and thus unable to claim it.

It looks good on the table though!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There’s a video out on the CAF Reddit about Hitler finding out he is losing PLD. It is worth the 4 mins or so to watch for a laugh.