armyguy62 said:
I don't know about these subs, but is there anything stopping CF members from forming a lobbying group or participating in political action? I know they defend the government but in a democracy can't they participate?
All Things HMCS Windsor (merged)
- Thread starter yoman
- Start date
I don't know about these subs, but is there anything stopping CF members from forming a lobbying group or participating in political action? I know they defend the government but in a democracy can't they participate?
Monsoon
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 10
- Points
- 230
Such is the glory of the Significant Incident Report - some hack in a newsroom can start drawing conclusions about a piece of incomplete information he heard about what's happened on a submarine before the Admiral is even aware anything has happened. It's comical to think that there are people who think PAFOs try to control the media and spin stories; they can barely spin their own headlines.buckahed said:
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
By joining the Military you are forced to give up some freedoms in order to protect those of others.
Part of what seperates developed democracies from "less stable" nations is that our militaries do not participate in political debate or openly lend support to a political faction.
It is very often frustrating yes, and it means some of the requirments for national defence are neglected, but its how things are kept democratic.
The top officers should be able to make comment on the needs of the forces, of course, but members can not be openly allowed to speak out politically or things could get ugly. It has happened in other countries.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
A sub is very easy to hide otherwise they would not be of much use...
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
buckahed, do you have any news articles to back that stuff up other than a blog? Not that I don't believe it, but I have seen people lie on blogs (I once read a MySpace blog of some guy *or kid for all I know* who claimed to be in the CF special forces, and used to talk about driving M1A2's and firing sniper rifles, and flying fighter jetss. Unless there's an all-in-one MOC that I don't know about, this guy was full of it)
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Good advise while in the CF you cant get political (in public with a stand) but you are supposed to vote. On that note there is a diff between Lib, Conservative, NDP and Block. They may not give you all the money you need but one party gives more..Conservative.
Now with that said don't be jaded when you get out join a party...oh please pick the right one, and get involved we the veterans can have a strong voice and lobby group once we retire by being political. I helped a young RCR officer just last year who ran for the nomination of the Conservative party in Fredericton. He came in 3rd of 6 candidates and did a fine job, he lost because his fellow soldiers did not join the party and come to vote for him at the nomination. You can join a party and go vote at the nomination meetings please do you may like what you get on voting day.
When I got out of the CF I ran for the nomination of the Conservative party in Fundy myself, out of 5 candidates I came in 2nd losing by one single vote. I would be sitting in Ottawa today if another soldier had joined and gone to the convention and voted for me. Think how interesting these posts would be had they been comming from an Army.ca guy in Ottawa.
Go out join a party and vote...
I'm still dreaming of Marine Amphibious Assault boats and Nuc subs......
Now with that said don't be jaded when you get out join a party...oh please pick the right one, and get involved we the veterans can have a strong voice and lobby group once we retire by being political. I helped a young RCR officer just last year who ran for the nomination of the Conservative party in Fredericton. He came in 3rd of 6 candidates and did a fine job, he lost because his fellow soldiers did not join the party and come to vote for him at the nomination. You can join a party and go vote at the nomination meetings please do you may like what you get on voting day.
When I got out of the CF I ran for the nomination of the Conservative party in Fundy myself, out of 5 candidates I came in 2nd losing by one single vote. I would be sitting in Ottawa today if another soldier had joined and gone to the convention and voted for me. Think how interesting these posts would be had they been comming from an Army.ca guy in Ottawa.
Go out join a party and vote...
I'm still dreaming of Marine Amphibious Assault boats and Nuc subs......
C
couchcommander
Guest
heh...
(time for a cheap shot...)
The Conservatives would be too busy giving tax breaks to oil companies to "lower the price of gas", and major coorporations "to increase productivity" to spend much more than the liberals have on Defence (and I highly doubt that your salary would rise enough to keep on par with the added cost of private insurance for recently delisted health care items).
(Serious about the cheap shot though, I am not making this up. These are actual conservative policies (maybe not publically stating they'd delist health care items, but Ralph did it here in Alberta, Campbell is doing it in BC (he's really blue at heart), Harris did it in Ontario.....*pattern recognition enabled*)
(time for a cheap shot...)
The Conservatives would be too busy giving tax breaks to oil companies to "lower the price of gas", and major coorporations "to increase productivity" to spend much more than the liberals have on Defence (and I highly doubt that your salary would rise enough to keep on par with the added cost of private insurance for recently delisted health care items).
(Serious about the cheap shot though, I am not making this up. These are actual conservative policies (maybe not publically stating they'd delist health care items, but Ralph did it here in Alberta, Campbell is doing it in BC (he's really blue at heart), Harris did it in Ontario.....*pattern recognition enabled*)
couchcommander said:
Yup...another bunch of you know what...the scary thing is the Conservatives may be even worse than the Liberals.
The thing I can't get over is how people are convinced the majority of Albertans opposed the NEP because they hated Trudeau and think that "now we are getting the oil wealth". The truth is--foreign oil companies are getting our oil for nothing, as Ralph delists social programs that should be easily affordable in a boom like this.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
CouchComdr
From your profile I see your a student, you views will change as you get into the work world. The Conservative policy you claim be hidden or not is not how the whole thing works. Reducing tax burdens or extra tax incentives to big oil do not have and cant have a correlation at the gas pump since gas is a commodity it trades at the world price not the oil company in Alberta or well head cost plus profit price. Delisting ahealth benefit at the provincial level is different than Fed politics and with out a specific case and a knowledge of why it was delinted if t all I cant comment.
Remember the conservatives had a purchase in place for new helos the liberals cut them. A purchase of 4 nuc subs was in place the Liberals cut that. We still don't have the helos although we have bought a few stripped down versions of the same bird some 10 years later at twice the price.
So I say get off the couch and get political, you get elected and make a difference or help some one to and get your ideas into Ottawa.
And For Daniel h. I agree on your point about cutting social programs old Ralphy is doing that and we need a little more cutting of the fat if you ask me, I'm tired of paying my taxs to a welfare state.
Shot right back at you both
From your profile I see your a student, you views will change as you get into the work world. The Conservative policy you claim be hidden or not is not how the whole thing works. Reducing tax burdens or extra tax incentives to big oil do not have and cant have a correlation at the gas pump since gas is a commodity it trades at the world price not the oil company in Alberta or well head cost plus profit price. Delisting ahealth benefit at the provincial level is different than Fed politics and with out a specific case and a knowledge of why it was delinted if t all I cant comment.
Remember the conservatives had a purchase in place for new helos the liberals cut them. A purchase of 4 nuc subs was in place the Liberals cut that. We still don't have the helos although we have bought a few stripped down versions of the same bird some 10 years later at twice the price.
So I say get off the couch and get political, you get elected and make a difference or help some one to and get your ideas into Ottawa.
And For Daniel h. I agree on your point about cutting social programs old Ralphy is doing that and we need a little more cutting of the fat if you ask me, I'm tired of paying my taxs to a welfare state.
Shot right back at you both
The Liberals cutting the helo and sub programs had less to do with cost savings or screwing the military on purpose and more to do with screwing the patrons of Mulroney's Conservatives.
This happens every time we change governments - they screw the friends of their enemies and reward their own friends. This is independant of red, blue, or orange; it's how Canadian politics works.
The helo deal came back to bite the Grits in the ass because it was more than just Tory patronage - we really needed those choppers.
We now have a thing on the go where Gen Hillier is kicking ass and taking names, he has the PM on side, the PM is talking about new doctrine that requires us to step in to help failed states that can no longer protect thir own citizens, and we're talking about bypassing/shortening the equipment procurement process s we can get the badly neded kit faster.
I'm having MASSIVE deja vu to the "Challenge and Commitment" white paper that was trotted out in the late 80s. A bunch of folks paid a visit to CMR, we got a huge dog & pony show on the new frigates they wanted to build, with new helos, new subs, and they brought an ADATS prototype along too. Then the govenment changed, and the axe fell.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the Reform^H^H^HAlliance^H^H^HTories get in, that the axe will fall on "Responsibility to Protect" and everything that Hiller & the PM are trying to accomplish, and we will be back to square 1 YET AGAIN. Anything the other party was doing is de facto bad and must be cut - ostensibly to cut the pork barrel patronage, but really so they can screw the other guy's supporters.
In a sad, strange, twisted sort of way, a vote for Martin is a vote for Hillier and his plans going forward. Vote for anybody else, and you're pulling the rug out from under the CDS's feet.
DG
This happens every time we change governments - they screw the friends of their enemies and reward their own friends. This is independant of red, blue, or orange; it's how Canadian politics works.
The helo deal came back to bite the Grits in the ass because it was more than just Tory patronage - we really needed those choppers.
We now have a thing on the go where Gen Hillier is kicking ass and taking names, he has the PM on side, the PM is talking about new doctrine that requires us to step in to help failed states that can no longer protect thir own citizens, and we're talking about bypassing/shortening the equipment procurement process s we can get the badly neded kit faster.
I'm having MASSIVE deja vu to the "Challenge and Commitment" white paper that was trotted out in the late 80s. A bunch of folks paid a visit to CMR, we got a huge dog & pony show on the new frigates they wanted to build, with new helos, new subs, and they brought an ADATS prototype along too. Then the govenment changed, and the axe fell.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the Reform^H^H^HAlliance^H^H^HTories get in, that the axe will fall on "Responsibility to Protect" and everything that Hiller & the PM are trying to accomplish, and we will be back to square 1 YET AGAIN. Anything the other party was doing is de facto bad and must be cut - ostensibly to cut the pork barrel patronage, but really so they can screw the other guy's supporters.
In a sad, strange, twisted sort of way, a vote for Martin is a vote for Hillier and his plans going forward. Vote for anybody else, and you're pulling the rug out from under the CDS's feet.
DG
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
All very good points and I can agree with most it. The change of Gov will always effect past plans as you said but if you think the plan that Hillier has is good then get involved and ensurev your MP knows that you want it to remain the same. From my point of view as an Ex member and a candidate for the party Harper was very receptive to the needs of the CF. Had I been elected I know I would not stand for cutting programs that are good just to piss off the liberal pork, I would just fire the pork.
Good points you made I will relay them to the powers that be...owh the power of getting invovled.
Oh and please dont park your vote out of fear make an informed choice.
Good points you made I will relay them to the powers that be...owh the power of getting invovled.
Oh and please dont park your vote out of fear make an informed choice.
Just give a second to notionally remove my rank and uniform....
OK, just a citizen for the moment.
I'm REALLY not interested in getting into political debare here. There's enough polarity as it is, and... I work in the US. I find myself forced to spend a lot of time in the company of Americans. And Lord Tunderin' Jaysus you would not believe the level of personal acrimony a political discussion can generate. Feuds and vendettas get started that way.
But I think it is important that the messege get out there that being in the military does not automatically make you a Tory. There exist Liberal supporters in the CF.
I personally think that overall, the Grits have done a pretty good job running the country. Yeah, they cut a lot of military programmes, but as I mentioned earlier, that had more to do with the fact that power changed hands than any sort of anti-military bias. Yeah, they cut a lot of spending and social programmes, but the biggest enemy facing Canada in the 90's was the looming possibility of fiscal insolvency. The Grits solved that. Our economy is booming (being paid in US funds, I'm very much aware of the relative strengths of the US economy vice the Canadian economy, because it changes the value of my take-home pay) and the Grits had the wisdom to use those big surplusses they created to pay down the national debt. The more we reduce the cost of servicing the debt, the less likely we are to wind up bankrupted if the ecomomy slows, and the more money becomes availible to (for example) buy the Army goodies.
Ultimately, I think the Grits' financial policies saved this country - look at the US economy. There but for the grace of God go we.
I also really like that when it comes to military decisions, the Grits think like Canadians and not just American puppets. I *like* that we are in Afganistan. I *like* that we are not in Iraq. I *like* that we aren't chained to that missile defense system.
And I *really really like* "Responsibility to Protect" and that the Grits are letting the CDS run amok the way his is, instead of muzzling him. I get the feeling that some sort of Grit/military corner has been turned, that the days of Trudeau (who was afraid the military wanted to take over, I swear to God) are over, and that the Grits now understand their responsibility to create and maintain a strong Canadian military.
Lord knows they haven't been perfect angels, but I think that the public peepee slapping they've been getting recently (a minority government and Gomery) serves to keep them honest.... or at least, to limit how outrageous the dishonesty gets.
And Harper.... I don't trust the man AT ALL. I think he'll say whatever it takes to get elected, and once he does, the mask comes off and whatever is really in there comes out. I don't for a second think that he'd carry on with "responsibility to protect", I think he'd cut the CDS off at the knees, and I think he'd outsource all our military planning to Washington. I, for one, am a CANADIAN soldier first and foremost. I work for the Queen and for my fellow Canadians, not Georgie Bush.
So anyway, I don't think it is any way disloyal to the military to support the Grits, and these days, my honest opinion is that our fortunes are better served with the Grits than with anybody else.
Y'all are free to disagree, and if you do, I won't argue.
DG
OK, just a citizen for the moment.
I'm REALLY not interested in getting into political debare here. There's enough polarity as it is, and... I work in the US. I find myself forced to spend a lot of time in the company of Americans. And Lord Tunderin' Jaysus you would not believe the level of personal acrimony a political discussion can generate. Feuds and vendettas get started that way.
But I think it is important that the messege get out there that being in the military does not automatically make you a Tory. There exist Liberal supporters in the CF.
I personally think that overall, the Grits have done a pretty good job running the country. Yeah, they cut a lot of military programmes, but as I mentioned earlier, that had more to do with the fact that power changed hands than any sort of anti-military bias. Yeah, they cut a lot of spending and social programmes, but the biggest enemy facing Canada in the 90's was the looming possibility of fiscal insolvency. The Grits solved that. Our economy is booming (being paid in US funds, I'm very much aware of the relative strengths of the US economy vice the Canadian economy, because it changes the value of my take-home pay) and the Grits had the wisdom to use those big surplusses they created to pay down the national debt. The more we reduce the cost of servicing the debt, the less likely we are to wind up bankrupted if the ecomomy slows, and the more money becomes availible to (for example) buy the Army goodies.
Ultimately, I think the Grits' financial policies saved this country - look at the US economy. There but for the grace of God go we.
I also really like that when it comes to military decisions, the Grits think like Canadians and not just American puppets. I *like* that we are in Afganistan. I *like* that we are not in Iraq. I *like* that we aren't chained to that missile defense system.
And I *really really like* "Responsibility to Protect" and that the Grits are letting the CDS run amok the way his is, instead of muzzling him. I get the feeling that some sort of Grit/military corner has been turned, that the days of Trudeau (who was afraid the military wanted to take over, I swear to God) are over, and that the Grits now understand their responsibility to create and maintain a strong Canadian military.
Lord knows they haven't been perfect angels, but I think that the public peepee slapping they've been getting recently (a minority government and Gomery) serves to keep them honest.... or at least, to limit how outrageous the dishonesty gets.
And Harper.... I don't trust the man AT ALL. I think he'll say whatever it takes to get elected, and once he does, the mask comes off and whatever is really in there comes out. I don't for a second think that he'd carry on with "responsibility to protect", I think he'd cut the CDS off at the knees, and I think he'd outsource all our military planning to Washington. I, for one, am a CANADIAN soldier first and foremost. I work for the Queen and for my fellow Canadians, not Georgie Bush.
So anyway, I don't think it is any way disloyal to the military to support the Grits, and these days, my honest opinion is that our fortunes are better served with the Grits than with anybody else.
Y'all are free to disagree, and if you do, I won't argue.
DG
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Well said the jist of the comments I was making was get involved and vote. For who is not the issue although I would prefer you vote for me. That said the Lib did not pay down the debt with the surplus they stole from us as tax payers. The debt relief and surplus came from Tory policy that the Libs used as a windfall. Remeber it takes 10 years for a policy to generate subtance on the national seen so go back 10 years and find out who don it. As for this current Gov we will see as there policies started to come to full visability today forward.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
ayup...
the problem with any party coming to the top after an election that throws out someone else is..... (drumroll) that they will stop everything & look at everything before returning to the business of running the country....
At least thats how it appears to my poor little eyes.
the problem with any party coming to the top after an election that throws out someone else is..... (drumroll) that they will stop everything & look at everything before returning to the business of running the country....
At least thats how it appears to my poor little eyes.
3rd Horseman said:
I'm not surprised by this individualist attitude, but it is silly in practice because if Ralphie the corporate lackie were charging oil companies ROYALTIES and if the feds were forcing the biggest corporations to pay more than their usual 0% (with loopholes) to at most 28 or 29%, then YOU would not be paying so much.
Nobody is asking you to pay for social programs with increased taxes--corporations used to pay about 50% of the taxes in Canada, now they pay under 10% of Canada's taxes. THAT is why people like yourself are overtaxed.
Also, our government is not forced to borrown money at prime interest rates, but they do. This interest eats up our surplus and a quarter of our budget every year. Debt payments are another reason you are overtaxed.
