All things Charlottesville (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

I barked. Fire, Ready, Aim. Been a shit day, apologies to all.

As I reread my bit, I could see you taking it that way - no harm, no foul 

 

[brihard]

Okay, hold it right there.  Before the tragic events of last week, the principal offenders in muzzling anyone who dared not to engage in right-think were Antifa and BLM.  Rioting on college campuses and smashing people in the head with bicycle locks, burning and looting, and at least indirectly inciting the murder of cops and white folks in general, and overthrowing the government.  I IN NO WAY SUPPORT ANY SORT OF -ISM, except anti-assholeism, and there is plenty of that to go around.  Any time that the irony of Antifa taking it's tactics directly out of the Brownshirt's playbook from the 1933/34 season is shouted down as a false equivalency.  So is your picture.  To equate thugs on any side smashing up crap with those guys going up that beach, including three Great Uncles, only one of which came home, in order to stop a great evil in a DECLARED WAR with rules and everything, is in my opinion pretty ******* weak.  I get it, you educated guys are way smarter than us deplorables who swing shovels and whatnot for a living. It's your world, we just work in it. Shan't bother you any longer.

Your critical failing is that you're trying to pick at this as a 'point in time' rather than looking at historical trajectories.

We are all well aware that we are not looking at the Alt-Right as contrasted with Nazis circa 1942... But rather circa 1922. Unfortunately, those of today are emboldened by seeing from history just what is possible when a group of people are riled up against a purported ethnic foe. We today are not dealing with trailbazing fascists, but rather those following on ground that has already been broken. Those today also have the ability to surround themselves with like minded individuals in a social media echo chamber- their thin dispersal across the country is no longer the weakness it once was. A critical mass is easier to assemble and concentrate.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I IN NO WAY SUPPORT ANY SORT OF -ISM, except anti-assholeism

Kat: Where can I sign up to join?

Just love that statement: Milpoints inbound.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sure - in this case, one just happens to be a nazi.  Anyone who can hate another person for such vile reasons never deserves any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned
.

Did you forget to mention ANTIFA, BLM, Black Panthers...............George Soros, etc, or don`t they count `as anyone who can hate another person for such vile reasons never deserves any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned`

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I barked. Fire, Ready, Aim. Been a shit day, apologies to all.

No need. Too many people start reading, lock onto a phrase, word or idea of a narrative. They type like they think they would be saying things.

Well, they hit that spot, stop reading the whole narrative so they can understand what`s being said, butt in and go after you for it. Sometimes, people post as if  they are talking to themselves, and expect everyone to understand them completely. Myself, along with hundreds of people just in this forum, seldom ask for clarification if they misunderstand. Instead of realizing it may be questionable, or downright stupid and asking to clarify, they take it as fact and attack, engage, use whatever word you want.

Then there`s the odd person who will critique your, spelling, grammar, don`t forget syntax, etc to show your dealing, out of your depth, with their superior intellect, but never get around to answering your question.

In the end, in accordance with Mikes wishes, lots of us have to start being more careful about how we deal with each other.

:2c:

 

[jmt18325]

Did you forget to mention ANTIFA, BLM, Black Panthers...............

That's not even close to the same thing.  BLM and ANTIFA exist precisely because of groups like the KKK.  Black people in America have undergone repressions that most of us can't even imagine.  It's not the same as white supremacy.

George Soros, etc, or don`t they count `as anyone who can hate another person for such vile reasons never deserves any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned`

George Soros doesn't count to me because I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Lumber]

From Twitter

Alt-left, violently coming at the alt-right, circa 1944.

I can't get on twitter right now, so I don't know if there's context here, but on the face  of it, the caption to this picture upsets me.

This is not the alt-left attacking the alt-right. This is the moderate, majority centre attacking the alt-right.

Protests, riots, civil unrest and and terrorism are what happens when you galvanize the alt-right and alt-left.

War, and what you see in this picture, is what happens when you piss of and galvanize the rest of us.

Don't group our veterans relatives into the same group as those alt-left neo-social-Marxist a$$holes.



P.S. Hey Mods, can I change my username to "George Soros" just so I can report RG for personal attacks and get him to stop bringing up George Soros?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Your critical failing is that you're trying to pick at this as a 'point in time' rather than looking at historical trajectories.

We are all well aware that we are not looking at the Alt-Right as contrasted with Nazis circa 1942... But rather circa 1922. Unfortunately, those of today are emboldened by seeing from history just what is possible when a group of people are riled up against a purported ethnic foe. We today are not dealing with trailbazing fascists, but rather those following on ground that has already been broken. Those today also have the ability to surround themselves with like minded individuals in a social media echo chamber- their thin dispersal across the country is no longer the weakness it once was. A critical mass is easier to assemble and concentrate.

Ever see some major event happen and think, "gee I feel like I've seen this all before?"

These aren't new problems, they are problems we've always faced and they come in waves.  The means are different but the ends are the same.  It's called social cycle theory. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

P.S. Hey Mods, can I change my username to "George Soros" just so I can report RG for personal attacks and get him to stop bringing up George Soros?

Why should I? His hands are all over this stuff. You don`t agree with me, so you want to censure me?  That's a little far left there, isn't it? :dunno:   

 

[GAP]

Can we get back on topic and have whom ever is involved in this pissing contest take it to PM's

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Can we get back on topic and have whom ever is involved in this pissing contest take it to PM's

Can we get back to taking a deep breath and ignoring a couple of fun-poking posts between two evil internet antagonists?

This thread, by nature is shit attitudes, shit opinions, shit arguments discussions, shit answers and shit everything else.

That's what's wrong here. Every single word is torn apart to find it's true meaning, every sentence is scrutinized for syntax, grammar, spelling, modern connotation and ancient meanings of the word just in case you have a hidden agenda and ancient and modern  meanings are different. Everyone speaks almost like an active participant. Not strange, seeing as there was only around 500 total lawbreakers, the total of both sides and most from out of state. I'll bet some from out of country. Uh oh,  :Tin-Foil-Hat: maybe even some from here :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Most of us, on Mike's privately owned, he makes the rules, forum, served. Some seeing the elephant and others not. That makes no difference here. EVERYONE here has an opinion, sometimes almost singular. It is their right.

And if Lumber is trying to diffuse things with humour, I'll play along. .

This thread has already caused enough angst, hard feelings, recriminations. Can someone please make one of those hitler bunker .avi and make me the big guy.

Damn, I just realized, we've had a shitload of trouble with the server. Most is hardware, I gather, but some maybe software. I won't say that this thing of ours' is Mike's hobby. I'm positive, mostly, sometimes, not at all this week that Mike was so thrilled, with his rebellious child, he ran to the woods and rubbed one out.

So, I've decided to raise some money. Wait out, for details.

Anyway, Gap brother, cool your jets. You can probably start ripping jugular veins with your teeth by tomorrow midnight, latest.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't think that there has been much rebranding by white supremacists. Just a veneer of propaganda. They're spouting the same old stuff in Charlottesville.

Very enlightening Vice News video here:

https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror

Vice aslo has an interesting article about why there are so many Confederate memorials throughout the States here:

https://news.vice.com/story/confederate-statues-are-all-over-states-that-werent-in-the-confederacy

It's interesting to note that much of this went on in the early 1900's and was concurrent with DW Griffith's 1915 movie "Birth of a Nation" which was responsible for a massive resurgence of the KKK (up to 4 million Americans had joined the Klan by 1924).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Refounding_in_1915

:cheers:

 

[Altair]

I suppose I can come out of my self imposed exile now, knowing that it's not just people arguing with me that gets threads locked down.

 

[Lumber]

I suppose I can come out of my self imposed exile now, knowing that it's not just people arguing with me that gets threads locked down.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery!  :rofl:

Can we get back to taking a deep breath and ignoring a couple of fun-poking posts between two evil internet antagonists?

...

And if Lumber is trying to diffuse things with humour, I'll play along. .

Me?! Sarcasm?! How dare you make such an inflammatory accusation!  ;D

 

[PuckChaser]

That's not even close to the same thing.  BLM and ANTIFA exist precisely because of groups like the KKK.

2 wrongs never make a right. If you want people to take your cause seriously, don't burn things, loot, causes riots or assassinate cops for a perceived racial inequality. Peaceful protests worked for women's suffrage and the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

All three of the groups you mentioned are asshats and don't belong in a modern, inclusive society.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I don't think that there has been much rebranding by white supremacists. Just a veneer of propaganda. They're spouting the same old stuff in Charlottesville.

Very enlightening Vice News video here:

https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror

Vice aslo has an interesting article about why there are so many Confederate memorials throughout the States here:

https://news.vice.com/story/confederate-statues-are-all-over-states-that-werent-in-the-confederacy

It's interesting to note that much of this went on in the early 1900's and was concurrent with DW Griffith's 1915 movie "Birth of a Nation" which was responsible for a massive resurgence of the KKK (up to 4 million Americans had joined the Klan by 1924).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Refounding_in_1915

:cheers:

This plays further in to the post I made here:

Ever see some major event happen and think, "gee I feel like I've seen this all before?"

These aren't new problems, they are problems we've always faced and they come in waves.  The means are different but the ends are the same.  It's called social cycle theory. 

With respect to the ongoing political turmoil in the US, What we are seeing is a flare up of tensions which is cyclical and natural.  The same tension driving the BLM/Antifa movement also drives the on going conflict in the Islamic crescent. 

Pitirim Sorokin, who was a prominent sociologist and Harvard academic, described this in his theories on social and cultural dynamics.

Based on a careful study of world history – including detailed statistical analysis of phases in art, architecture, literature, economics, philosophy, science, and warfare – he identified three strikingly consistent phenomena:

There are two opposed elementary cultural patterns, the materialistic (Sensate) and spiritual (Ideational), along with certain intermediate or mixed patterns.  One mixed pattern, called Idealistic, which integrates the Sensate and Ideational orientations, is extremely important.

Every society tends to alternate between materialistic and spiritual periods, sometimes with transitional, mixed periods, in a regular and predictable way.

Times of transition from one orientation to another are characterized by a markedly increased prevalence of wars and other crises.

Sensate (Materialistic) Culture

The first pattern, which Sorokin called Sensate culture, has these features:

The defining cultural principle is that true reality is sensory – only the material world is real. There is no other reality or source of values.
This becomes the organizing principle of society. It permeates every aspect of culture and defines the basic mentality. People are unable to think in any other terms.
Sensate culture pursues science and technology, but dedicates little creative thought to spirituality or religion.
Dominant values are wealth, health, bodily comfort, sensual pleasures, power and fame.
Ethics, politics, and economics are utilitarian and hedonistic. All ethical and legal precepts are considered mere man-made conventions, relative and changeable.
Art and entertainment emphasize sensory stimulation. In the decadent stages of Sensate culture there is a frenzied emphasis on the new and the shocking (literally, sensationalism).
Religious institutions are mere relics of previous epochs, stripped of their original substance, and tending to fundamentalism and exaggerated fideism (the view that faith is not compatible with reason).

Ideational (Spiritual) Culture

The second pattern, which Sorokin called Ideational culture, has these characteristics:

The defining principle is that true reality is supersensory, transcendent, spiritual.
The material world is variously: an illusion (maya), temporary, passing away (“stranger in a strange land”), sinful, or a mere shadow of an eternal transcendent reality.
Religion often tends to asceticism and moralism.
Mysticism and revelation are considered valid sources of truth and morality.
Science and technology are comparatively de-emphasized.
Economics is conditioned by religious and moral commandments (e.g., laws against usury).
Innovation in theology, metaphysics, and supersensory philosophies.
Flourishing of religious and spiritual art (e.g., Gothic cathedrals).

Integral (Idealistic) Culture

Most cultures correspond to one of the two basic patterns above. Sometimes, however, a mixed cultural pattern occurs. The most important mixed culture Sorokin termed an Integral culture (also sometimes called an idealistic culture – not to be confused with an Ideational culture.) An Integral culture harmoniously balances sensate and ideational tendencies.

Characteristics of an Integral culture include the following:

Its ultimate principle is that the true reality is richly manifold, a tapestry in which sensory, rational, and supersensory threads are interwoven.
All compartments of society and the person express this principle.
Science, philosophy, and theology blossom together.
Fine arts treat both supersensory reality and the noblest aspects of sensory reality.

Reading Sorokin's definitions of the different cultures, it's fairly clear that the West (including the United States) is a Sensate culture, this isn't to say that there aren't forces of ideation in these cultures but they've been overtaken by the the former.  Sorokin theorizes that this will always go on for a period of time until a culture reaches the point of decadence:

Sorokin was especially interested in the process by which societies change cultural orientations. He opposed the view, held by communists, that social change must be imposed externally, such as by a revolution. His Sorokin was especially interested in the process by which societies change cultural orientations. He opposed the view, held by communists, that social change must be imposed externally, such as by a revolution. His principle of immanent change states that external forces are not necessary: societies change because it is in their nature to change. Although sensate or ideational tendencies may dominate at any given time, every culture contains both mentalities in a tension of opposites. When one mentality becomes stretched too far, it sets in motion compensatory transformative forces.

Helping drive transformation is the fact that human beings are themselves partly sensate, partly rational, and partly intuitive. Whenever a culture becomes too exaggerated in one of these directions, forces within the human psyche will, individually and collectively – work correctively.

Crises of Transition

As a Sensate or Ideational culture reaches a certain point of decline, social and economic crises mark the beginning of transition to a new mentality. These crises occur partly because, as the dominant paradigm reaches its late decadent stages, its institutions try unsuccessfully to adapt, taking ever more drastic measures. However, responses to crises tend to make things worse, leading to new crises. Expansion of government control is an inevitable by-product

I tend to agree with Sorokin and think we are seeing similar trends in both the Islamic world and the Western world.  The issues are different but the end states are much the same.  The Islamic world is further along in their move towards integral culture, hence the scale of violence and warfare in their part of world.

I'll finish with two pictures:

The first is a picture from the pride parade in Boston, the second is a picture of Muslim women clad in Burkha's. 

My opinion, both represent an extreme form of decadence; however, they exist on opposite ends of the spectrum.  The first is an extreme example of a sensate culture, the second is an extreme form of the ideation culture.  Different but at the same time similar as both represent cultural decadence in my mind. 

There will need to be a convergence of values between our respective cultures sometime as extremes cannot coexist with each other.

Source for Pitirim Sorokin:  https://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/pitirim-sorkin-crisis-of-modernity/

 

[Strike]

2 wrongs never make a right. If you want people to take your cause seriously, don't burn things, loot, causes riots or assassinate cops for a perceived racial inequality. Peaceful protests worked for women's suffrage and the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

All three of the groups you mentioned are asshats and don't belong in a modern, inclusive society.

So, those peaceful protests weren't really all that successful now, were they.  Or else the US wouldn't still be arguing about those exact same issues today.

And you're right.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  But have you ever had to try and deal with disciplining several kids for different reasons all at once?  It doesn't work.  So you start with the worst offender and then work your way down.  That way when bad kid number 1 complains that the other kids also misbehaved you can point out that what they did was the worst of the bunch.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Anyone who can say that there are two sides when we're talking about an actual nazi rally, complete with white nationalist terrorism, goes far beyond confirmation bias.  When David Duke praises your assessment of events, it goes far beyond confirmation bias.  When you say 'what about the alt left?' (sic) when discussing what happened at an event where a your girl was murdered, you're beyond confirmation bias. 

Justin Trudeau deserves nuanced thinking.  Stephen Harper and Barack Obama deserved nuanced thinking.  Donald Trump is now far beyond that, despite his previous (sometimes, depending on the day) repudiations.

Seems like there is a strong possibility that the vehicle incident might not have been per-mediated but as a result of the driver being attacked and panicked. We will have to follow the court case to be sure. Lot's of Canadians also had to fight the Communists as well and that system of government has created death, misery and social upheaval that the Nazis can only dream about. It's funny how people who are ready to grab a pitchfork as soon as a Nazi is spotted, starting mumbling when they see a communist. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Both sides of these violent loser groups are the same. Both have a shitty agenda they want to push and will use whatever rethoric is convenient. They're both terrorist style groups and need to be treated as such.

At this point arguing who's more or less violent isnt going to begin to fix anything. 

These are violent groups, many of which are "professional protestors", who are showing up with the intention to be violent and spur others on. What they're not is children and can't be treated like a grade 1 class being rowdy. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Seems like there is a strong possibility that the vehicle incident might not have been per-mediated but as a result of the driver being attacked and panicked. We will have to follow the court case to be sure. Lot's of Canadians also had to fight the Communists as well and that system of government has created death, misery and social upheaval that the Nazis can only dream about. It's funny how people who are ready to grab a pitchfork as soon as a Nazi is spotted, starting mumbling when they see a communist.

I wondered about this when I watched the video. I found it weird that someone intent on killing people would smash into the back of another car to do so when he could have easily mowed down a crowd.


Good luck getting a fair trial though. If that's what happened (accident/panic)  I'd imagine the authorities may very well  be tempted to let buddy hang for it to avoid protesters to use a not guilty verdict as a flame to torch cities.