All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

[KevinB]

I think the most logical post I have seen in the thread and explains why we need to push vaccines is the one that mentioned the vulnerable chid unable to receive it and at risk.

Passports I do think are funny and read an interesting take on that I can't recall the wording of but boils down to - If you did the right thing, got the needle to protect yourself, you have to carry something to prove it. The person that didn't get it doesn't have to carry anything, goes to the restaurant and sits on the patio. Can't go to the bar, house party. Theatre - who really goes there anymore? Stay home, make popcorn and enjoy the movie for a fraction with friends and family. Concerts - pay a small fortune to watch someone lip sync to their electronic altered recording? Stay home, have a party and turn on the radio. No gym - do anti-vaxxers actually use them? Who is really getting punished?

I took my three kids to a movie last week when my oldest was down visiting - we where the only 4 people in the theatre, was a fantastic time.

We don't have passports here in VA, and the mask mandates for many things are county to county based, but you do make an interesting point on who is being hassled WRT passports - that said - based on what I have observed here, the vaccinate people are generally the ones taking more precautions anyway.

Asserting authority over someone takes away their consent. In cases of sexual assault someone who is a subordinate cannot consent. Assault is assault regardless of the subtype. Furthermore, and most importantly an assault includes the use of indirect force, so being at arms length does not mean you are not culpable.

This is legitimately one of the stupidest things I've read here.

 

[KevinB]

There are way too many people filled with glee on this creep towards authoritarianism.

I could understand the reasoning, IF mandatory vaccinations had not been common in the past.
Small Pox - I still have my arm scar
Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella etc - all common and mandatory at certain points in ones life - IF one wants to interact with society.

 

[QV]

I could understand the reasoning, IF mandatory vaccinations had not been common in the past.
Small Pox - I still have my arm scar
Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella etc - all common and mandatory at certain points in ones life - IF one wants to interact with society.

It’s not just the vax mandates. It’s censorship, bought out media, firearms confiscation, cancel culture etc etc. How the vax mandates are being handled is just a part of the long march. Look at the messaging, if someone doesn‘t believe a COVID vaccine is needed for them personally, they‘re termed with venom an “anti-vaxxer” even though they may have every other possible inoculation. Things are not looking good long term. The handling of this pandemic is a part of all that.

 

[KevinB]

It’s not just the vax mandates. It’s censorship, bought out media, firearms confiscation, cancel culture etc etc. How the vax mandates are being handled is just a part of the long march. Look at the messaging, if someone doesn‘t believe a COVID vaccine is needed for them personally, they‘re termed with venom an “anti-vaxxer” even though they may have every other possible inoculation. Things are not looking good long term. The handling of this pandemic is a part of all that.

Only if you chose to view it that way.
Pick your battles and fight the relevant fights - but the polarization of society is nothing new - but fighting a vaccine mandate to me, just serves to further fragment the right.

 

[OldSolduer]

I could understand the reasoning, IF mandatory vaccinations had not been common in the past.
Small Pox - I still have my arm scar
Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella etc - all common and mandatory at certain points in ones life - IF one wants to interact with society.

A British woman wrote about her experiences as the daughter of an anti Vaxx mom in the 60s. Basically she said she spent a lot of her pre teen and teen years sick in bed.

I know its an anecdotal piece and not real evidence but if you choose not to get vaccinated and by chance contract COVID who will care for you? A Rhetorical question of course but people may want to think about that.

 

[KevinB]

A British woman wrote about her experiences as the daughter of an anti Vaxx mom in the 60s. Basically she said she spent a lot of her pre teen and teen years sick in bed.

I know its an anecdotal piece and not real evidence but if you choose not to get vaccinated and by chance contract COVID who will care for you? A Rhetorical question of course but people may want to think about that.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't think about the tertiary issues.

With rights come responsibilities - quite often people forget the responsibilities we all bare.

 

[dimsum]

With rights come responsibilities - quite often people forget the responsibilities we all bare.

Yep.

"I HAVE RIGHTS!"

"Yes, but you also have responsibilities."

 

[mariomike]

I could understand the reasoning, IF mandatory vaccinations had not been common in the past.
Small Pox - I still have my arm scar
Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella etc - all common and mandatory at certain points in ones life - IF one wants to interact with society.

I had to annually provide my employer a valid certificate signed by my doctor "or a delegate" stating I was vaccinated against influenza "to continue to be considered employable."

 

[dapaterson]

With rights come responsibilities - quite often people forget the responsibilities we all bare.

We'll just call you "Uncle Ben Parker".

 

[QV]

Yep.

"I HAVE RIGHTS!"

"Yes, but you also have responsibilities."

I’d worry more about COVID-19 if two things were true:

1. the virus killed more people every year in Canada than medical errors; and
2. the average age of those killed with/by COVID-19 was far less than the average life expectancy in Canada.

Neither of those is true.

Add the ever changing goal posts and re-writing of science and scientific definitions (such as herd immunity), censorship (bill C-10, and cancel culture), untrustworthy political leadership, institutions losing public trust, vaccine effectiveness waning, complete ignore of recovered naturally immune or antibody level checks, privileged parts of society exempt the vax (parliament!, judiciary?) etc, you could go on and on. Because of all that I believe this mandate is not justified (particularly with the majority pop. already willingly vaccinated). There were things we could have done early in the pandemic, we did the opposite.

For the roughly 75% here pro mandate what’s the goal, 90%, 98%, 100%? Is it done then, or boosters every six months... for ever? Where does this end?

 

[Navy_Pete]

I’d worry more about COVID-19 if two things were true:

1. the virus killed more people every year in Canada than medical errors; and
2. the average age of those killed with/by COVID-19 was far less than the average life expectancy in Canada.

Neither of those is true.

Add the ever changing goal posts and re-writing of science and scientific definitions (such as herd immunity), censorship (bill C-10, and cancel culture), untrustworthy political leadership, institutions losing public trust, vaccine effectiveness waning, complete ignore of recovered naturally immune or antibody level checks, privileged parts of society exempt the vax (parliament!, judiciary?) etc, you could go on and on. Because of all that I believe this mandate is not justified (particularly with the majority pop. already willingly vaccinated). There were things we could have done early in the pandemic, we did the opposite.

For the roughly 75% here pro mandate what’s the goal, 90%, 98%, 100%? Is it done then, or boosters every six months... for ever? Where does this end?

Huh, that's the stupidest thing I've read today. Both are avoidable, and the new variants a lot of younger, healthier non-vaccinated people are dying and otherwise ending up with permanent after effects. At what point are you going to decide that COVID is 'bad enough' to get vaccinated? When you're on a ventilator?

Also, about 25% of people get long term affects, including permanent organ damage. So that's a few hundred thousand Canadians who have had or still have lingering affects. Sure, they aren't dead, but not being dead isn't a really great metric when you can't get out of bed, or can't breathe, or now have your life shortened because your heart/lungs have been messed up. If you are going to talk about context, consider the full context of COVID other than just dying, and that our death rates are only not higher because of massive efforts of our health care providers, with the whole system now massively overstrained with medical professionals getting burnt out and leaving it all together. That's a generational impact that will drop our general health care quality and have massive 2nd and 3rd order implications.

We wear seatbelts to prevent people going through windshields and dying. We ban talking on phones while driving to reduce avoidable accidents. People have to take gun safety courses so they don't accidentally shoot themselves. Why is this so hard?

 

[suffolkowner]

Specifically I find it hard to see a vaccination mandate for the military being unlawful/unethical. With respect to the rest it comes down to what everyone has already mentioned, people don't have to get vaccinated but they can expect that some activities and opportunities will be restricted or unavailable to them. This particular coronavirus and its various mutations has been a particularly effective agent as it is highly transmissable. It is wrong in my opinion to judge the danger by comparing the results without taking into understanding the public health measures enacted, which have drastically reduced infection rates and deaths. Why anyone would want to risk acquiring natural immunity over the choice of vaccination we have been given is beyond me

 

[Misses muffett]

I was wondering and I'm not a lawyer. If you were unvaccinated because you refused to do so, you were an asymptomatic carrier (like Typhoid Mary) and you inflected someone and who died because of you, can you be charged under civil law?

Theyde have to prove it was you who infected them, beyond a reasonable doubt...this is not AIDS were talking about here

 

[Misses muffett]

Theyde have to prove it was you who infected them, beyond a reasonable doubt...this is not AIDS were talking about here

And if you were unaware you had it...how could you be culpable...blame the bats

 

[Misses muffett]

"So eloquent"

Why thank you, but I get the sense that I have been 'damned with faint praise'.

There is no "absolute freedom" in Canada or, I suspect any other functioning democracy. People that like to quote the Charter often conveniently forget the very first Section:

1. Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.​

While I'm not aware of any element of the Covid response has been put to this test, at any level, the broad consensus holds that they would survive. Believe the expert opinions or not.

It is true that they are "mandates", but they have been issued within the general legal authorities given to employers to manage the health and safety of their workplaces and other labour laws. There will be underlying 'enabling' legislation. I'm not aware that Parliament has passed legislation surrounding the workplace use of cannabis, but employers have invoked mandates specific to the various workplaces. Like them or not.

Out of simple practicality, not every action of the State has to flow from an individual Act of Parliament (proposed Bill, three readings, committee, etc.). For example, if you want to eat in a restaurant in Ontario, the requirement to show proof of vaccination are laid out in Regulation 364/20 under the 'Reopening Ontario Act. Regulations are approved by Cabinet, not the Legislature and, by their nature, can be more responsive and dynamic.

I get it; your employer has, or is about to, impose a new workplace rule that you're not particularly thrilled with. It seems you have three choices; comply, don't comply and leave, don't comply and fight it. Your call - good luck with whichever path you choose. I'm sure you could find civilian employment that is absolutely free of any rules you don't agree with.

Why thanks you Sir, I appreciate your elongated response. You mentioned absolute freedom first, so I figured it must exist. I do plan to fight it: and and am enameled by your overwhelming support did I say enameled...
I meant enamoured

 

[Remius]

Theyde have to prove it was you who infected them, beyond a reasonable doubt...this is not AIDS were talking about here

There are more than enough anti vax freaks out there that spit or cough on people or urinate on restaurant counters because they are special snowflakes that find wearing a mask or getting a needle is hard and lose their minds when they can’t get their garden supplies.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why thanks you Sir, I appreciate your elongated response. You mentioned absolute freedom first, so I figured it must exist. I do plan to fight it: and and am enameled by your overwhelming support did I say enameled...
I meant enamoured

Good luck fighting it. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Enjoy early retirement.

 

[Misses muffett]

Yep.

"I HAVE RIGHTS!"

"Yes, but you also have responsibilities."

Yes, we have rights and responsibilities. It is too early to say what is right...all the cards are not on the table. Our responses may be different, each thinking they are being responsible.

 

[Misses muffett]

Good luck fighting it. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Enjoy early retirement.

Good luck fighting it. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Enjoy early retirement.

If only it were that easy

 

[Zoomie]

If only it were that easy

In reality it’s pretty easy. LWOP while being processed release under 5f. We were discussing the way forward on this today.

There is zero sympathy for those who wish to remain unvaccinated in the CAF - no grievance authority will support any redress attempts.