All Things CAF and Covid/ Covid Vaccine [merged]

[brihard]

Thanks for the"shut up and do what you're told" answer, super helpful. Back to reality, workplaces are exempt vaccination proof requirements in Ontario. You're suggesting we've created Shrondingers Mess where they're both simultaneously a workplace for harassment purposes but not a workplace for vaccine mandates. If you cant see how stupid that sounds, I can't help you any further.

But that’s nonetheless the fact set. Messes get their liquor licences provincially; while they are part of the military’s physical infrastructure, they still have to follow provincial laws around things like alcohol service.

Besides that, it’s entirely reasonable for the military to mandate proof of vaccines to enter a mess for social purposes. It’s a nonessential activity, it’s a congregate setting with risk of virus spread, and such virus spread is an operational liability. CAF already knows that everyone serving has a range of other vaccines that fulfil the same purpose for other viruses. Because Covid, and vaccines therefor, are new on the scene, novel mechanisms are required to ensure that same protection.

CAF members are free to simply not go to the mess on their own time, same as they’re free to not go to Boston Pizza. But the simple reality is that Covid vaccination will now be a basic employment requirement. CAF members can choose to continue to serve with CAF or not. Freedom of choice is not freedom from consequences.

 

[hattrick72]

ATL do participate in PERs; you get an exemption for the relevant time period if it runs over the majority of the period or a PER for the portion of the reporting period you aren't on the ATL. BTL pers may not get a PER due to rank, but you are still supposed to keep div notes and give feedback via PDR if they are doing OJT; and otherwise they are covered under course reports.

That makes sense, I don't have any experience with ATL. BTL members that have come to work under me for OJT were given PDR. However, I didn't think BTL section would give PDR.

I'm a good 6-7 years away from a per now, so I wasn't even writing about PACE until I had summer employment.

 

[kev994]

If that is happening, then it is local decision. Other bases have declared the gym an essential service to CAF members and therefore allow access without proof.

In Trenton you need proof of vaccination for the gym except if doing a force test, for the mess and dining hall except for mess dinner (don’t shoot the messenger on that last one, that’s just what it says).

 

[kev994]

Equally troubling in this thread is those people who are stating they don’t have MM access or it doesn’t work for them. I heavily recommend you get that figured out ASAP, PaCE is here and everyone should have filled out their JD and MAP already. Less than a week until your first debrief session.

I didn’t see a DWAN station the entire time I was OUTCAN, go figure the USCG isn’t set up for access to a foreign country’s intranet.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If only we had a mechanism for someone to make one set of rules that apply to every building, and every employee.

 

[kev994]

If only we had a mechanism for someone to make one set of rules that apply to every building, and every employee.

Then every place ‘interprets it’ into whatever they want it to say anyway…

 

[Zoomie]

Thanks for the"shut up and do what you're told" answer, super helpful. Back to reality, workplaces are exempt vaccination proof requirements in Ontario. You're suggesting we've created Shrondingers Mess where they're both simultaneously a workplace for harassment purposes but not a workplace for vaccine mandates. If you cant see how stupid that sounds, I can't help you any further.

I think Brihard already summed this up quite succinctly - but here’s my thoughts (definitely not telling you to shut up and obey).

The Mess is sometimes used for official CAF functions outside of the private military club setting - like H&A ceremonies or Working Ground, under those circumstances you would not require proof of vaccination - for the reasons that Brihard mentioned. If the bar is open and liquor is flowing, it now falls under the auspices of being a “non-essential activity” which, legislated under provincial health mandate, requires proof of vaccination of everyone with a heartbeat. This is the only way that local commanders are allowing Messes to be “open” and serve alcohol.

 

[Kat Stevens]

So, PMC enters the mess every day, Monday to Friday to do PMC stuff. No vacc check. PMC goes to a wedding reception at the mess on a Saturday and is required to show vacc proof. Monday, back to PMC stuff, no check. Am I reading that correctly? Same for bar staff?

 

[Kilted]

So, PMC enters the mess every day, Monday to Friday to do PMC stuff. No vacc check. PMC goes to a wedding reception at the mess on a Saturday and is required to show vacc proof. Monday, back to PMC stuff, no check. Am I reading that correctly? Same for bar staff?

They are the PMC, I'm sure that they can arrive before anyone starts checking. In fact they are probably responsible to delegate the vaccine checking person.

 

[brihard]

So, PMC enters the mess every day, Monday to Friday to do PMC stuff. No vacc check. PMC goes to a wedding reception at the mess on a Saturday and is required to show vacc proof. Monday, back to PMC stuff, no check. Am I reading that correctly? Same for bar staff?

May vary by province. I know Ontario doesn’t require vaccines for the staff at establishments (which is weird- thanks Doug Ford), but I can’t speak to others.

There is of course a difference between a PMC attending to work in his or her office, versus a patron attending to eat and drink and socialize.

Now, with the new federal mandate, my understanding is anyone working on federal property will need to be vaccinated. Not sure how that would apply to non-CAF (NPF?) mess staff, but likely they will need to be as per of the federal effort to achieve fully vaccinated workplaces. And, of everything in the federal sphere, CAF is the easiest for which to justify this due to its unique operational imperatives.

 

[lenaitch]

May vary by province. I know Ontario doesn’t require vaccines for the staff at establishments (which is weird- thanks Doug Ford), but I can’t speak to others.

There is of course a difference between a PMC attending to work in his or her office, versus a patron attending to eat and drink and socialize.

Now, with the new federal mandate, my understanding is anyone working on federal property will need to be vaccinated. Not sure how that would apply to non-CAF (NPF?) mess staff, but likely they will need to be as per of the federal effort to achieve fully vaccinated workplaces. And, of everything in the federal sphere, CAF is the easiest for which to justify this due to its unique operational imperatives.

NPF employees are federal public servants, so captured by the government directive. I suppose in Ontario, if one drops into the Canex to buy a coffee they don't have to show proof.

 

[McG]

NPF employees are not public servants and not employed by the government. They are employed by NPF.

 

[Weinie]

NPF employees are not public servants and not employed by the government. They are employed by NPF.

But they do have a union, who, wisely, have not weighed in yet full bore.

 

[dapaterson]

NPF employees are non-core public servants - considered a separate agency, per schedule V of the FAA. Financial Administration Act

 

[PuckChaser]

This is the only way that local commanders are allowing Messes to be “open” and serve alcohol.

I'm fairly certain Grn Petawawa would have gotten JAG advice before clarifying thier policy is only non-DND civilians are required to prove vaccination. The only thing military members are asked for is thier ID if they're in civvies.

 

[Infanteer]

If the bar is open and liquor is flowing, it now falls under the auspices of being a “non-essential activity” which, legislated under provincial health mandate, requires proof of vaccination of everyone with a heartbeat. This is the only way that local commanders are allowing Messes to be “open” and serve alcohol.

I'm not sure this is the case - it isn't happening in the base I am on.

 

[lenaitch]

NPF employees are not public servants and not employed by the government. They are employed by NPF.

Just going off this:

"Staff of the Non-Public Funds, Canadian Forces are public servants who work to take care of CAF members, veterans, and their families. They deliver morale and welfare services such as health, fitness and recreational programs as well as shopping, retail, and financial services."​

Staff of the Non-Public Funds, Canadian Forces, and the Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Services - Canada.ca

www.canada.ca

then this:

Employment in the federal public service must be with a department or branch that forms part of the public service. It also includes employment in any of the boards, commissions or agencies that form part of the public service for pension purposes.​

1. Any department which is (or was during its lifetime) presided over by a Minister of the Crown.

Employment in the Federal Public Service - Eligibility to Contribute - Employer Support Services - Government of Canada Pension Centre - Pension Services - Pay and Pension Services for Government Employees - PWGSC

Describes the different types of employment in the federal public service and when a person is considered to be employed in the public service.

www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca

then this:

3 The Minister of National Defence may appoint such persons as he deems proper to the Staff of the Non-Public Funds, Canadian Forces.​

Non-Public Funds Staff Regulations

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

 

[Zoomie]

I suspect a lot of our differences are due to Provincial health orders. Comox is in BC - we follow what Bonnie Henry dictates. As a Mess, we have determined that if the bar taps are open, we fall under the “non-essential” activity and thus everyone must be vaccinated - we don’t distinguish between CAF, NPF, PSP or civilian since the PHO doesn’t care. Local commanders provide their own risk acceptance strategies and come up with a plan that they are happy with, this is what Comox does, YMMV.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If I read this right, Freeland says the CAF doesn't need the mandatory vaccines.

Freeland admits most federal employees exempt from proof of vaccination requirements

With 300,540 federal public service employees, the Treasury Board in a Policy On COVID-19 Vaccination said numerous exemptions would cover some 212,000 employees.

thepostmillennial.com

 

[brihard]

If I read this right, Freeland says the CAF doesn't need the mandatory vaccines.

Freeland admits most federal employees exempt from proof of vaccination requirements

With 300,540 federal public service employees, the Treasury Board in a Policy On COVID-19 Vaccination said numerous exemptions would cover some 212,000 employees.

thepostmillennial.com

Not precisely. The policy that was published Wednesday is a TBS policy. It does not apply itself to CAF. CAF will have its own vaccine mandate, the PM in his press conference made reference to something coming from the CDS later.

There’s also nothing in the policy to substantiate the claim of exemptions for things like call centre operators, if they’re public servants. If that’s contracted out, then potentially, yeah.

As for the attestation versus proof thing- the public service isn’t set up to collect or handle medical information on all employees the way that CAF or RCMP are. I’m sure they’ll come up with something, but for now the attestation system lets them roll this out fast- trust now, verify later. Presumably anyone caught lying in a subsequent audit once they figure out next steps will face discipline up to and including termination.