All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)

[Rigger052]

Sounds like a unique way to raise money for charity. Not something i could contribute to though as I have a baby face and couldn't even grow a bad moustache if I tried.  8) As long as the facial hair adheres to guidelines I personally have never seen issue with it, just as long as the member remembers that they are representing the CF and should look professional, not like an escapee from a biker convention.

 

[BinRat55]

I'm just going by what I can gather from what he said. I.e. he has to pay to grow a beard to support different 'organisms' (read orgs). I'm just asking BinRat55 why he seems so opposed to the idea. You ARE allowed to grow a beard, according to the regs, it's been going on for years and I haven't seen any CF members with a minimum '8 piercings' yet. 

I'm not opposed to a beard growing contest. I "attempt" to participate in one every year - it lasts about 4 weeks. HOWEVER... if you reread the original post, 15 bucks for the first month and 5 bucks a month every month thereafter does not constitute a beard growing contest. It actually contradicts the dress regs. That's what i'm opposed to.

 

[Rigger052]

True enough, but in this case such a change in the dress regs would have to require the approval of the CO or other responsible officer wouldn't it? After all the non-commissioned ranks can't just pick up and do as they please, I could see more than one Sgt Major having a fit over that one.  :threat:

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I'm just going by what I can gather from what he said. I.e. he has to pay to grow a beard to support different 'organisms' (read orgs). I'm just asking BinRat55 why he seems so opposed to the idea. You ARE allowed to grow a beard, according to the regs, it's been going on for years and I haven't seen any CF members with a minimum '8 piercings' yet. 

Read the regs again Piper.

From CFP 265

Beards (see Figure 2-2-2)
(a) Subject to procedures established
by commanders of commands,
permission to wear a beard shall
only be granted to all ranks who
wear the naval uniform, wherever
serving; all ranks on strength of an
infantry pioneer platoon; adherents
of the Sikh religion (see Section 3);
and personnel, on the direction of a
medical officer, subject to medical
reassessment at intervals not
exceeding six months. Other
personnel shall shave off their
beards.

IMHO the fol apply:

1. The OP is army, so therefore not entitled
2. Pioneers have not existed for some time, therefore not entitled
3. Doesn't apper to be Sikh
4. If a MO says its a medical condition, ok (can't see a whole section or platoon coming down with this)

 

[BinRat55]

Read the regs again Piper.


IMHO the fol apply:

1. The OP is army, so therefore not entitled
2. Pioneers have not existed for some time, therefore not entitled
3. Doesn't apper to be Sikh
4. If a MO says its a medical condition, ok (can't see a whole section or platoon coming down with this)

I beleive you have hit the nail on the head - as well as most engineers can!! (which is MUCH better than I...)

 

[iciphil]

Hi, I'd like to know where, exactly, can I find the order-instruction-message ordering the shaving of beards for flight day?

Is it a Canlandgen, Canforgen or something else ?

I'm an infantryman eith the medical O3 shaving restriction, y'know' 'can't shave unless ordered so for operationnal reasons'. So, I'd like to check and make sure I'm not being played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC.

Thanks.

And forget about the 'check with your COC' obvious replies, if you re-read my post you'll see I checked but the source is ...let's say biased.

 

[392]

Did you check with the UMS to see what "operational reasons" entails? Something is telling me CBRN situation, but I can't recall exactly. They should have the details based on what each of those categories actually means.

FWIW, wearing a beard in theatre eventually becomes a bit of a pain, even though it becomes almost second nature depending on where you are. The itchiness and constant feeling of "my beard feels disgusting" from the constant dust and sweat gets old fast.

 

[vonGarvin]

As I recall during my work up for my tours in Afghanistan, we were required to have fit, functional CBRN gear, including the mask.  The mask requires a person to be clean shaven.  I'm just throwing this out here, but, to my feeble mind, that appears to be a valid operational reason.


Just sayin'.

 

[Halifax Tar]

As I recall during my work up for my tours in Afghanistan, we were required to have fit, functional CBRN gear, including the mask.  The mask requires a person to be clean shaven.  I'm just throwing this out here, but, to my feeble mind, that appears to be a valid operational reason.


Just sayin'.

Actually not quite correct Technoviking. When the current CBRN mask was first released we had Pioneer Ptns and Naval pers who both readily wore beards. As was explained to me not long ago that mask was designed with facial hair included in the design process. So the often argued CBRN reason is actually null and void. Now on the Navy side of the house with a positive pressure system the facial  hair will now allow seal and that is why sailors at sea no longer have beards.

I am over here now and the beard issue is one of great discussion. It came out for my Roto (9...Leaving soon WOO HOO) that if you have a beard on your CF ID card and/or your passport your good, otherwise it must be shaved.

Yours,
HT

 

[PMedMoe]

As was explained to me not long ago that mask was designed with facial hair included in the design process. So the often argued CBRN reason is actually null and void.

Really?  Because when we were fit-tested by a civilian company prior to my tour in 2005, it was stated that even hair from the forehead under the mask could compromise the seal.

 

[OldSolduer]

Hi, I'd like to know where, exactly, can I find the order-instruction-message ordering the shaving of beards for flight day?

Is it a Canlandgen, Canforgen or something else ?

I'm an infantryman eith the medical O3 shaving restriction, y'know' 'can't shave unless ordered so for operationnal reasons'. So, I'd like to check and make sure I'm not being played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC.

Thanks.

And forget about the 'check with your COC' obvious replies, if you re-read my post you'll see I checked but the source is ...let's say biased.

If your MEL says no shaving except for operational reasons, then so be it.  By the tone of your message, and I quote "played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC", this sounds like more of a personal thing between you two.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Actually not quite correct Technoviking. When the current CBRN mask was first released we had Pioneer Ptns and Naval pers who both readily wore beards. As was explained to me not long ago that mask was designed with facial hair included in the design process. So the often argued CBRN reason is actually null and void. Now on the Navy side of the house with a positive pressure system the facial  hair will now allow seal and that is why sailors at sea no longer have beards.

I am over here now and the beard issue is one of great discussion. It came out for my Roto (9...Leaving soon WOO HOO) that if you have a beard on your CF ID card and/or your passport your good, otherwise it must be shaved.

Yours,
HT

Actually TV is right. What you've been told is false.


From B-GJ-005-311/FP-020
CANADIAN FORCES NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL DEFENCE
TACTICS, TECHNIQUES AND PROCEDURES

114. Hair Removal

1. Facial hair will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the C4 NBC Mask facepiece seal; therefore CF personnel
will shave at least once every 24 hours during operations under NBC threat. Moreover long hair can interfere
with donning the mask and may result in leakage around the face seal, hair will be kept short enough to ensure a
seal.

Your Unit CBRN Operator will have this info readily available.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Actually TV is right. What you've been told is false.


From B-GJ-005-311/FP-020
CANADIAN FORCES NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL DEFENCE
TACTICS, TECHNIQUES AND PROCEDURES

Your Unit CBRN Operator will have this info readily available.

I have no doubt that is what that says. So I guess we could safely say the mask was no good for a certain percentage of toops for all the years it has been around. I have a feeling that this a new(ish) reg and its simply latching onto the common trend which is against beards these days in the CF.

FYI In 2009 I was FIT Tested, on board HMCS Toronto, with the C-4 BRN Mask and the Ultra Twin (Chemox Mask) and I passed all tests well within the allowable limits AND I had/have a full on hairy bag beard....I will produce my FIT Test card if requested...Just saying

Grow a beard and try it for your self, if your local staff will let you. I think you will be surprised.

 

[Pusser]

All this crap about not being able to get a seal with a beard is absolute nonsense.  I've worn a beard for over 20 years and have never once had trouble getting a seal with any of the C3, C4 or CHEMOX masks.  And, yes, I have had plenty of opportunities to test that fact.  It has also been suggested that stubble (which some men will develop relatively quickly after shaving) will actually hold the mask off the face because it is rigid and straight, whereas a beard (which is soft and pliable) will actually compress.

The argument against beards could also be made for hair on top of the head, but we don't make people shave their heads do we?

We could also solve this whole problem by switching to hood type masks, which seal around the neck.  such things do exist and they're easier to fit because a lesser variety of sizes is needed.  I would even go so far as to say that one size could fit all.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I think it just gives the manufacturer an easy out in case of deficiency.........

 

[Fishbone Jones]

All this crap about not being able to get a seal with a beard is absolute nonsense.  I've worn a beard for over 20 years and have never once had trouble getting a seal with any of the C3, C4 or CHEMOX masks.  And, yes, I have had plenty of opportunities to test that fact.  It has also been suggested that stubble (which some men will develop relatively quickly after shaving) will actually hold the mask off the face because it is rigid and straight, whereas a beard (which is soft and pliable) will actually compress.

The argument against beards could also be made for hair on top of the head, but we don't make people shave their heads do we?

We could also solve this whole problem by switching to hood type masks, which seal around the neck.  such things do exist and they're easier to fit because a lesser variety of sizes is needed.  I would even go so far as to say that one size could fit all.

So, I guess the three weeks I spent at the Bug School to become a CBRN Operator are all bullshit then. All the testing and drills are just put in place to fuck with bearded personnel. Tell you what, just keep doing what your doing. I'll teach my guys the proper way to protect themselves according to the tested methods and as long as they are under my care they'll do it properly. Or I guess they can go join the Navy.

I have a feeling that this a new(ish) reg and its simply latching onto the common trend which is against beards these days in the CF.

The reg about beards and masks is far from new. Its been around for the 35 years I've been serving.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm with recceguy on this. Many years ago, the first orthodox Sikh recruit underwent NBCD trg in CFRS Cornwallis. He never had to shave nor cut his hair. We attempted several times to ensure a seal for the gas hut. Nothing worked.

The bottom line is, to the one who started this is that if you have to shave, shave. Period.
Never mind your childish rant about your "beard hating Pl 2IC". Be professional and suck it up.

 

[Halifax Tar]

All I am saying is I got/get a seal every time I have been through the gas hut or FF training in the past. You didn't answer though recceguy why is it just suddenly (last 5 years we'll say) that beards and masks are a no no ? What about all the time before while we had the C4 ? What changed ?

Like I said I am in Panjiway right now and the rule is if you have a beard on your passport or CF ID Card picture you can keep it, because it is considered changing your appearance when you shave it and that can cause issues trying pass through some airports and customs.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think it just gives the manufacturer an easy out in case of deficiency.........

I think this may be closer to the real reason than any of us care to know...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

All I am saying is I got/get a seal every time I have been through the gas hut or FF training in the past. You didn't answer though recceguy why is it just suddenly (last 5 years we'll say) that beards and masks are a no no ? What about all the time before while we had the C4 ? What changed ?

Like I said I am in Panjiway right now and the rule is if you have a beard on your passport or CF ID Card picture you can keep it, because it is considered changing your appearance when you shave it and that can cause issues trying pass through some airports and customs.

I did answer it. Take a look above. The policy is far from new. Once more, I have been following said policy for 35 years and it's still the policy and we are still following it.

I also have more than a passing acquaintance with the policy re: beards and ID. It has nothing to do with masks.