All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)

[Kirkhill]

So what would it look like with

NASAMS fire control?

An MMR or 2 providing 250 km surveillance (in service)
An SUAV Troop of RQ-21 Blackjacks (in service)
A troop of ESSMs providing 50 km coverage (ESSMs in service - launcher required)
A battery of M777-52 ERCA with Vulcanos providing 100 km counter-battery (M777s in service - ERCA mods and ammo required)

3 batteries of M777-39 (in service)

3 Skyshield troops armed with Millenial Ahead 35mm or the DS30M  (extend the purchase of whatever the RCN is buying for the Type 26)
3 Troop armed with AMADs or similar MANPADS system.

 

[a_majoor]

Based on the principle of 'walk before we run' or 'every little bit counts', is there a suite of air defence sight/ mounting options that can be added to the .50 cal/ C6 these days?

At the very least, we should be able to mount these on vehicles, or a ground mount of some kind.

Like Chris, I also enjoy "catalog shopping", and believe there is a low cost solution for Canada to get started by modifying the Avenger system:

Phase 1: Mobility improvement. The HMMVW platform is pretty old, but can be rebuilt with a new suspension from OSHKOSH and replacing the ancient drive train with a comparable one dropped in from a modern high capacity Ford, GM or Chrysler pickup truck. As an alternative, the vehicle can be rebuilt to the SCTV standard.

Phase 2: Increasing close in firepower by replacing the M2 with the STK .50 HMG. The weapon is almost half the weight, has a dual feed system (allowing loading two belts and having twice the ready ammunition) and a modern quick change barrel. The firepower would need to be complimented by a  TrackingPoint computerized sight to allow for more accurate engagements of UAVs at maximum range.

Since adding something like a TrackingPoint sight would also benefit ground mounted HMG's, GPMG's and automatic grenade launchers, as well as designated marksmen, these could be purchased in bulk, gaining economies of scale for the Armed Forces as well.

Phase 3 would include modern radios and computers to integrate the Avenger into the local AD system and the protected unit.

 

[Kirkhill]

The bizarre thing is that our procurement system discourages catalogue shopping by demanding the reinvention of wheels.

Catalogues invariably list existing solutions to our problems.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So what would it look like with

NASAMS fire control?

An MMR or 2 providing 250 km surveillance (in service)
An SUAV Troop of RQ-21 Blackjacks (in service)
A troop of ESSMs providing 50 km coverage (ESSMs in service - launcher required)
A battery of M777-52 ERCA with Vulcanos providing 100 km counter-battery (M777s in service - ERCA mods and ammo required)

3 batteries of M777-39 (in service)

3 Skyshield troops armed with Millenial Ahead 35mm or the DS30M  (extend the purchase of whatever the RCN is buying for the Type 26)
3 Troop armed with AMADs or similar MANPADS system.

Sorry, Chris. I am going to burst your bubble.

In the AD game, the adage that "he who defends everything, defends nothing" is a first principle. The battlefield is not billard table flat- there are defiles and dead zones everywhere. When you say ESSM has a 50km range, that might be true at sea in blue water ops, but it would be effectively true anywhere on land. If one tries to even space AD systems across a (say) BDe area, you risk defending nothing, because you must achieve interlocking weapons system coverage. A better aproach is to do an estimate to determine what you must defend (ie, what our side cannot afford easily to lose) and then establish an all-round point defence of that area. It may be worth owning a few longer range AD systems just to really mess with an enemy's day. My sense is that we are probably going to need some sort of gun/missile mix (with maybe a laser option) to deal with all the threats out there today from UAS, to helicopters to jets to missiles and artillery shells.

I would further suggest that trying to do counterbattery work with an M777 (or any towed gun) will get you dead, fast. Today, you probably need rocket artillery to do CB work effectively. I would even suggest that the M777 is probably not mobile enough to survive anything other than low intensity conflict and should be replaced with either a tracked or wheeled gun system that can shoot and scoot. I guarantee that, if we were to fight a modern enemy, their CB rounds would be on the way to our gun positions, even before our rounds landed.

 

[dapaterson]

I would further suggest that trying to do counterbattery work with an M777 (or any towed gun) will get you dead, fast. Today, you probably need rocket artillery to do CB work effectively. I would even suggest that the M777 is probably not mobile enough to survive anything other than low intensity conflict and should be replaced with either a tracked or wheeled gun system that can shoot and scoot. I guarantee that, if we were to fight a modern enemy, their CB rounds would be on the way to our gun positions, even before our rounds landed.

You're missing the priority: Having an impressive looking cannon to start the Army Run!

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Rheinmetall Oerlikon Quebec.

Skyshield - Specifically a C-RAM system capable against RPAS and in range Helos.

And you could compliment it with with the Oerilikon/Rheinmetall Skyranger 35mm air defence system.

Or may be the South Korean K30 Biho SPAAG which is a combined gun-missile system mounted on a tracked chassis. Two 30mm guns (3 km range), four SAMs (6 km range). Each system comes with it an integrated radar (21 km range. According to the Wikipedia they cost $12.1 (USD) million each. So, according to my calculations with $500 million ($372 million USD) Canada could buy 24 systems, plus extra for spares, training, etc.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything on how much the Skyranger system costs.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

You're missing the priority: Having an impressive looking cannon to start the Army Run!

Jesus wept- then borrow one of 2 RCHA's cermonisl 25 pounders, put a blank round in and let rest of the Artillery move back into relevance.

 

[FJAG]

Sorry, Chris. I am going to burst your bubble.

In the AD game, the adage that "he who defends everything, defends nothing" is a first principle. The battlefield is not billard table flat- there are defiles and dead zones everywhere. When you say ESSM has a 50km range, that might be true at sea in blue water ops, but it would be effectively true anywhere on land. If one tries to even space AD systems across a (say) BDe area, you risk defending nothing, because you must achieve interlocking weapons system coverage. A better aproach is to do an estimate to determine what you must defend (ie, what our side cannot afford easily to lose) and then establish an all-round point defence of that area. It may be worth owning a few longer range AD systems just to really mess with an enemy's day. My sense is that we are probably going to need some sort of gun/missile mix (with maybe a laser option) to deal with all the threats out there today from UAS, to helicopters to jets to missiles and artillery shells.

I would further suggest that trying to do counterbattery work with an M777 (or any towed gun) will get you dead, fast. Today, you probably need rocket artillery to do CB work effectively. I would even suggest that the M777 is probably not mobile enough to survive anything other than low intensity conflict and should be replaced with either a tracked or wheeled gun system that can shoot and scoot. I guarantee that, if we were to fight a modern enemy, their CB rounds would be on the way to our gun positions, even before our rounds landed.

All very good points. The one about the M777 really resonates with me.

I understand from current gunners that the M777 is a good piece of kit ... BUT ... when I left the RegF in 1981 my battery was an M109 one and we were just getting into the game of dispersed deployments, shoot and scoot and all those other buzz words because we knew that surviveability, even in tracked, armoured M109s, depended on it. I know that many of those tactics and procedures are still in play today but I still can't understand how you can design the medium weight LAV3/6 force we have with artillery that has the mobility issues that the M777 has. (And yes I know that the Stryker Bde Cbt Team uses M777's as well - but they're looking at changing that see eg: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24663/army-tests-low-recoil-155mm-howitzer-small-enough-to-fit-on-the-back-of-a-truck)

You're comments about the factors involved in deploying air defence systems are also very correct. I was there when we were resurrecting air defence back in around 1980 and it always struck me that one of the most critical skills that air defence gunners and officers had to learn was the ability to sight their systems so as to provide the maximum protection possible. This was particularly challenging when supporting a fast moving armoured force. IMHO this calls for light weight rapid fire weapons integrated with combat arms element to provide intimate protection against drones and helicopters and the like and a heavier layer to protect units and formations from air, missile, rocket and even mortar and artillery projectiles. Now we're talking sophisticated equipment heavy on command and control and maintenance needs and ammunition usage. In fact one of the greatest issues for me with the $500 million budget is that while we might be able to buy sufficient systems to cover one brigade, what will we do for war stocks for ammunition and its replacement during a conflict?

:cheers:

 

[daftandbarmy]

A better aproach is to do an estimate to determine what you must defend (ie, what our side cannot afford easily to lose) and then establish an all-round point defence of that area. It may be worth owning a few longer range AD systems just to really mess with an enemy's day. My sense is that we are probably going to need some sort of gun/missile mix (with maybe a laser option) to deal with all the threats out there today from UAS, to helicopters to jets to missiles and artillery shells.

I hated doing endless exercises based on Bridge Demolition Guards, except for getting to gawk at all the cool toys encrusting the general area, including Rapier etc...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I hated doing endless exercises based on Bridge Demolition Guards, except for getting to gawk at all the cool toys encrusting the general area, including Rapier etc...

That was like my favourite type of operation when I was in the Army!

 

[FJAG]

I hated doing endless exercises based on Bridge Demolition Guards, except for getting to gawk at all the cool toys encrusting the general area, including Rapier etc...

"Cool toys" and "Rapier" were mutually exclusive terms long ago when it was optically guided and fair weather only. I gather they've come a long way since then but are up for replacement in the not too distant future.

:cheers:

 

[daftandbarmy]

"Cool toys" and "Rapier" were mutually exclusive terms long ago when it was optically guided and fair weather only. I gather they've come a long way since then but are up for replacement in the not too distant future.

:cheers:

When you are engaged in an organization where the height of technology includes puttees, a camouflaged scarf, and a 7.62 version of the Bren Gun, Rapier looks pretty Star Wars

 

[FJAG]

When you are engaged in an organization where the height of technology includes puttees, a camouflaged scarf, and a 7.62 version of the Bren Gun, Rapier looks pretty Star Wars

:rofl:

 

[tomahawk6]

My dad was an ADA type during Vietnam commanding a Nike Hercules battalion in the LA air defense. Prior to that he was a Field Artillery officer. He had to go to FT Bliss to attend a course at the ADA school. We spent a year in LA which saw wild fires approaching some of dad's firing batteries. Then he would get called out at odd hours for drills and tests. Fortunately the only missiles that were fired were at Ft Bliss at White Sands. The battalion of course had nuke warheads in the event of an all out attack by the Russians. Over time the Nike sites were turned over to the National Guard and then were shuttered post Vietnam to save money. I was in Alaska when the last Nike sites were closed and the nukes were flown out of State in the capable hands of the USAF.

 

[FJAG]

My dad was an ADA type during Vietnam commanding a Nike Hercules battalion in the LA air defense. Prior to that he was a Field Artillery officer. He had to go to FT Bliss to attend a course at the ADA school. We spent a year in LA which saw wild fires approaching some of dad's firing batteries. Then he would get called out at odd hours for drills and tests. Fortunately the only missiles that were fired were at Ft Bliss at White Sands. The battalion of course had nuke warheads in the event of an all out attack by the Russians. Over time the Nike sites were turned over to the National Guard and then were shuttered post Vietnam to save money. I was in Alaska when the last Nike sites were closed and the nukes were flown out of State in the capable hands of the USAF.

You may not know that there was a US Air Force competitor to the Nike Hercules called the CIM-10 Bomarc which was also nuclear tipped. Canada bought and deployed two squadrons of them as part of the NORAD system from 1963 to 1972 at North Bay Ontario and La Macaza Quebec. We also flew fifty-four F 101 Voodoo fighters which were armed with AIR-2 Genie nuclear rockets from 1963 to 1984 in the air defence role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Inventory_of_Canada's_nuclear_armaments

:cheers:

 

[MilEME09]

You may not know that there was a US Air Force competitor to the Nike Hercules called the CIM-10 Bomarc which was also nuclear tipped. Canada bought and deployed two squadrons of them as part of the NORAD system from 1963 to 1972 at North Bay Ontario and La Macaza Quebec. We also flew fifty-four F 101 Voodoo fighters which were armed with AIR-2 Genie nuclear rockets from 1963 to 1984 in the air defence role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Inventory_of_Canada's_nuclear_armaments

:cheers:

Ah yes the Bomarc, the missile the replaced the Avro Arrow. Back to the main topic, Could we create a cheap gun and/or missile system to put on the LAV 6? new turret for a higher angle of attack plus a couple stingers maybe? Or as FJAG has suggested take a light Utility truck if we ever say replace the LS and put a small missile or gun system on the back.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Ah yes the Bomarc, the missile the replaced the Avro Arrow. Back to the main topic, Could we create a cheap gun and/or missile system to put on the LAV 6? new turret for a higher angle of attack plus a couple stingers maybe? Or as FJAG has suggested take a light Utility truck if we ever say replace the LS and put a small missile or gun system on the back.

I'm sure we could do a more modern version of the LAV-AD using a LAV6 chasis, and what ever is the best missile/chaingun/FCS on the market today.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lav-ad.htm

 

[MilEME09]

I'm sure we could do a more modern version of the LAV-AD using a LAV6 chasis, and what ever is the best missile/chaingun/FCS on the market today.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lav-ad.htm

What abut take a page from Russian AA design? larger turret and give it Twin 25mm Chain guns, plus missiles? I am no expert but I feel like with the right radar/FCS that such a vehicle could keep the skys clear of drones, and rotary wing aircraft easily

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry, Chris. I am going to burst your bubble.

In the AD game, the adage that "he who defends everything, defends nothing" is a first principle. The battlefield is not billard table flat- there are defiles and dead zones everywhere. When you say ESSM has a 50km range, that might be true at sea in blue water ops, but it would be effectively true anywhere on land. If one tries to even space AD systems across a (say) BDe area, you risk defending nothing, because you must achieve interlocking weapons system coverage. A better aproach is to do an estimate to determine what you must defend (ie, what our side cannot afford easily to lose) and then establish an all-round point defence of that area. It may be worth owning a few longer range AD systems just to really mess with an enemy's day. My sense is that we are probably going to need some sort of gun/missile mix (with maybe a laser option) to deal with all the threats out there today from UAS, to helicopters to jets to missiles and artillery shells.

I would further suggest that trying to do counterbattery work with an M777 (or any towed gun) will get you dead, fast. Today, you probably need rocket artillery to do CB work effectively. I would even suggest that the M777 is probably not mobile enough to survive anything other than low intensity conflict and should be replaced with either a tracked or wheeled gun system that can shoot and scoot. I guarantee that, if we were to fight a modern enemy, their CB rounds would be on the way to our gun positions, even before our rounds landed.

You burst my AD bubble!    :'( :'( :'(

Up in flames again.  ;D

So the M777 isn't the CB answer.

How about the Truck Mounted Launcher with a NASAM/MML/HIMARS type box launcher?  One launcher for AIM9, ESSM and GMRLS.

As for the number of launchers, missiles and vital points... back to the number of bucks in the bank.

 

[FJAG]

I'm sure we could do a more modern version of the LAV-AD using a LAV6 chasis, and what ever is the best missile/chaingun/FCS on the market today.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lav-ad.htm

The US is working on an update of that called the IMSHORAD

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2018/06/28/us-armys-interim-short-range-air-defense-solution-crystallizes/

It includes a pod of Stingers, another of Longbow Hellfires, an M203 chaingun and a 7.62 mm machine gun.

I like it.

:cheers: